[PPIT]Loki 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:30 Uhr
Why a ubuntu only beta is a bad idea
First: i could understand your intentions, to make a single distribution test. But i think it is a very bad idea.

Possible errors in system packages could not be verifed
If all users get the same error, there are two options.
  • the error is in the client
  • the error is in some system package
To verify this, you would need at least one other distribution.

Many advanced linux gamers get excluded
Many advanced linux gamers does not use Ubuntu. After a few years of gaming with the penguin, the most users have tested different distros and decided which one to use.
As you have to patch wine for many games for example, the get some problems solved, it does not care which distribution you use for winegamers. Ok, gentoo have an advantage, but it as ubuntu, not everyone likes it

just m2c
Zuletzt bearbeitet von [PPIT]Loki; 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:30 Uhr
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~Negroto~ 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:39 Uhr 
Many *buntu packages are core-compatible with Debian, for the most part - *buntu IS based on Debian. As Debian is representative of one of the largest distro bases out there, I would agree with this move - however, a plain-jane flavour of this package for Debian would be nice - easy to make other distro packages from compared to the *buntu packages, normally. As for different type-distros, like RPM based and such, perhaps some happy hacker could Alien it over in its current form while waiting for other distros to get their packages (if it happens), with a little patching here and there.

Stranger things have been done, and they've worked.

*Edit: Btw, using Debian Testing w/ Liquorix + vendor NVidia driver.
Zuletzt bearbeitet von ~Negroto~; 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:41 Uhr
Tórus 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:41 Uhr 
Any advanced linux user can use Ubuntu if he want to.
Lumen 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:41 Uhr 
I'm not sure if they're only accepting Ubuntu users since us Arch users already have the Steam client available in the AUR. Although the tarball contains a .deb file so I suppose it might be the Ubuntu client made to install on Arch but that no one with Arch has access to the beta.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Jechx:
Any advanced linux user can use Ubuntu if he want to.
True, but s/he doesn't necessarily want to. I used to dual-boot Windows and Ubuntu back when I started using Linux and it was really annoying to have to reboot every time I wanted to play a game, I don't want to have to do the same thing with two Linux distros.
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Lumen; 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:43 Uhr
Zoot 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:42 Uhr 
Valve doesn't have infinite resources to sit and debug the idiosyncrasies of every obscure garage distro out there. I imagine the Linux gaming market is already relatively small to begin with, and it only makes sense that they move cautiously to ensure a good experience for as many users as possible, rather than create a horrible experience for everyone and be forced to cut the product because people can't use it.
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Zoot; 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:43 Uhr
~Negroto~ 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:42 Uhr 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Jechx:
Any advanced linux user can use Ubuntu if he want to.

Question is, why would they want to?

Not hating on *buntu - just saying, there's really much better choices.
~Negroto~ 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:46 Uhr 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Zoot:
Valve doesn't have infinite resources to sit debug the idiosyncrasies of every obscure garage distro out there. I imagine the Linux gaming market is already relatively small to begin with, and it only makes sense that they move cautiously to ensure a good experience for as many users as possible, rather than create a horrible experience for everyone and be forced to cut the product because people can't use it.

Relatively small? I think you'd be mistaken - Red Eclipse, AssaultCube, SauerBraten, TORCS, Warsow, SuperTuxKart, all of the emulation pursuants - sure, these may not be profitable ventures to anyone at the moment (unless you count Nexuiz, which was pretty much stolen - not getting into that here) - but look at Transgaming/Cedega - they made quite a bit of money with their customized Wine w/ support for gamers. Problem is, noone takes us seriously, when it's our systems (Linux systems in general) that essentially run the core of the internet - about 70% of it.

The movement away from Windows and Mac is coming - has been for a long time - and now it's about to get here en masse. I think Valve is smart for seeing it, now they just need to keep the ball rolling long enough (and on the right path) for others to pick it up and do the same.
Netist 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:46 Uhr 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
Possible errors in system packages could not be verifed
If all users get the same error, there are two options.
  • the error is in the client
  • the error is in some system package
To verify this, you would need at least one other distribution.
What? No. It's not that hard to figure out if something is going wrong in an external library as opposed to your own application.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
Many advanced linux gamers get excluded
Many advanced linux gamers does not use Ubuntu. After a few years of gaming with the penguin, the most users have tested different distros and decided which one to use.
As you have to patch wine for many games for example, the get some problems solved, it does not care which distribution you use for winegamers. Ok, gentoo have an advantage, but it as ubuntu, not everyone likes it

I've said it before. Who cares? Honestly? If it runs on one distro, it'll run on another. Maybe you need some minor config or package changes, but it'll run.

It fact, it already IS running. On Arch. On Fedora. On Gentoo. On whatever the hell people are running.

It doesn't matter.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ~Negroto~:
Relatively small? I think you'd be mistaken
Yes, it is relatively small. Relatively. As in, compared to something else. In this case, most likely the Windows gaming market.
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Netist; 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:49 Uhr
~Negroto~ 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:50 Uhr 
THIS.

"I've said it before. Who cares? Honestly? If it runs on one distro, it'll run on another. Maybe you need some minor config or package changes, but it'll run.

It fact, it already IS running. On Arch. On Fedora. On Gentoo. On whatever the hell people are running.

It doesn't matter."
Zuletzt bearbeitet von ~Negroto~; 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:50 Uhr
~Negroto~ 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:51 Uhr 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Netist:
Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
Possible errors in system packages could not be verifed
If all users get the same error, there are two options.
  • the error is in the client
  • the error is in some system package
To verify this, you would need at least one other distribution.
What? No. It's not that hard to figure out if something is going wrong in an external library as opposed to your own application.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
Many advanced linux gamers get excluded
Many advanced linux gamers does not use Ubuntu. After a few years of gaming with the penguin, the most users have tested different distros and decided which one to use.
As you have to patch wine for many games for example, the get some problems solved, it does not care which distribution you use for winegamers. Ok, gentoo have an advantage, but it as ubuntu, not everyone likes it

I've said it before. Who cares? Honestly? If it runs on one distro, it'll run on another. Maybe you need some minor config or package changes, but it'll run.

It fact, it already IS running. On Arch. On Fedora. On Gentoo. On whatever the hell people are running.

It doesn't matter.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ~Negroto~:
Relatively small? I think you'd be mistaken
Yes, it is relatively small. Relatively. As in, compared to something else. In this case, most likely the Windows gaming market.

Well, if NVidia and ATI/AMD get the hint and package drivers for *nix, I'm pretty sure they know a little better, and I think that speaks volumes.

*conversation over*
[PPIT]Loki 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:55 Uhr 
There are already ports for nearly every other distro out there. Fedora, Gentoo, and all the other.

But according to this topic only ubuntusers was enabled for beta right now.



Ursprünglich geschrieben von Zoot:
Valve doesn't have infinite resources to sit and debug the idiosyncrasies of every obscure garage distro out there.
Valve does not have to.

It would be just like a control group. If only users of distribution XYZ have a certain bug, Valve does not need to look into it. But if users of another distro does report the same issue, it is likely that the found a real bug within the client.

As linux user, administator and developer if have seen so many bugs in binary packages by ubuntu, debian and other distributions (also in gentoo source builds of course) that triggered realy wired segmentation faults in other applications. And no, that is not always so simlpe. And even if it is, it costs time, much time. You have to reproduce the bug. And if a bug only occours on the 10383 launch of a game, it would be hard to do so.

Netist 8. Nov. 2012 um 8:58 Uhr 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
There are already ports for nearly every other distro out there. Fedora, Gentoo, and all the other.

But according to this topic only ubuntusers was enabled for beta right now.
What's your point?

Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
As linux user, administator and developer if have seen so many bugs in binary packages by ubuntu, debian and other distributions (also in gentoo source builds of course) that triggered realy wired segmentation faults in other applications. And no, that is not always so simlpe. And even if it is, it costs time, much time. You have to reproduce the bug. And if a bug only occours on the 10383 launch of a game, it would be hard to do so.
They have these neat things called "debuggers" that let you do all kind of nifty things like step through programs and get stack traces.
[PPIT]Loki 8. Nov. 2012 um 9:00 Uhr 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Netist:
They have these neat things called "debuggers" that let you do all kind of nifty things like step through programs and get stack traces.

Of course they have. And you have to trigger the bug to use this kind of thing, you know?
And if there are some kernel patches / settings, doing nasty things, you are ♥♥♥♥ed ...
Netist 8. Nov. 2012 um 9:02 Uhr 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
Ursprünglich geschrieben von Netist:
They have these neat things called "debuggers" that let you do all kind of nifty things like step through programs and get stack traces.

Of course they have. And you have to trigger the bug to use this kind of thing, you know?
And if there are some kernel patches / settings, doing nasty things, you are ♥♥♥♥ed ...
And that's a problem regardless of whether or not the bug occurs on multiple distros.

Hell, many distros use the same versions of libraries. There could be different versions of libraries within the same distro.

It's not a good metric for much of anything, including bug tracing.
Zoot 8. Nov. 2012 um 9:03 Uhr 
Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
It would be just like a control group. If only users of distribution XYZ have a certain bug, Valve does not need to look into it.
This is just plain wrong. No serious developer ignores a bug just because he can pin the blame on someone else.
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Zoot; 8. Nov. 2012 um 9:11 Uhr
RobotMenace 8. Nov. 2012 um 9:04 Uhr 
Ubuntu has the largest user base. Simples.
Ursprünglich geschrieben von loki:
Many advanced linux gamers get excluded
Many advanced linux gamers does not use Ubuntu.

This "advanced Linux gamer" has been using Linux for nigh on 15 years. I've ended up using Ubuntu on my desktop and laptop boxes for pure convenience. Yep I don't use Unity too often, but all that takes is an "sudo apt-get install de-of-choice" and your away. The only major problem I can find with it is the pragmatic approach to proprietary packages. But anyone with those problems wanting Steam is been a hypocrite of the magnitude of Jupiters magnetic field.

I also had zero issues getting this working on a cut down distro I'm working on. If you're such an advanced user you shouldn't have a problem doing the same.

Oh and easy to use is not a bad thing, and I can easily do everything I can on other distros anyway. OK, it doesn't have the easy access to cross compiler setups that, oh say Fedora does, but if you can't set that up yourself you shouldn't be trying anyway.

Oh, and most people that vehemently against Ubuntu are just a bunch of pseudo-intellectual snobs.
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