UraniumDeer Jul 17, 2013 @ 1:29pm
Wayland!
I can't help it. I'm a great fan of the concept 'perfect frames'.

It'd make sense for Valve to wait until proprietary drivers has the necessary support, and until the major DE's has Wayland fully integrated, and maybe even until the Wayland/Mir battle has played out. That's probably the better side of a year (though we are seeing initial support from some DE's (KDE 4.11, RebeccaBlackOS, Arch, etc.), but Valve isn't the company to idly sit by. So though it's optimistic - I'm hopeful! :)
However I have to ask:
- Any announcements or rumors regarding support of a new display-server.
- Does anyone have an idea as to how hard/easy it is to make the compatibility-layer, used for porting Steam games, compatible with Wayland?
Showing 1-15 of 94 comments
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6wl Jul 17, 2013 @ 2:28pm 
To be honest, there is tons of stuff I'd like to see.

Steam client being more 'linuxcentric'
- use libnotify if the user wants to
- migrate to gtk3 (to help with the upgrade path to wayland)
- allow steam client to take system gtk themes
- opus for voice chat

etc
TeknoTroll Jul 17, 2013 @ 3:12pm 
nooo, not gtk3, Qt is a better choice.
Last edited by TeknoTroll; Jul 17, 2013 @ 3:13pm
s.plisskin [Archlinux] Jul 17, 2013 @ 3:23pm 
+1 for Qt.
Doc Holliday Jul 17, 2013 @ 5:11pm 
Wayland Kick's ♥♥♥ even the Xorg server is going to turn into Xwayland down the road
gutigen o) Jul 17, 2013 @ 9:21pm 
Originally posted by Doc Holliday:
Wayland Kick's ♥♥♥ even the Xorg server is going to turn into Xwayland down the road

MIR Kick's ♥♥♥ even the Xorg server is going to turn into XMIR down the road

:)
blackout24 Jul 18, 2013 @ 12:36am 
Originally posted by gutigen o):
Originally posted by Doc Holliday:
Wayland Kick's ♥♥♥ even the Xorg server is going to turn into Xwayland down the road

MIR Kick's ♥♥♥ even the Xorg server is going to turn into XMIR down the road

:)

Hehe, yeah like they'll ever get distro specific code upstreamed! :D

There is already a port of SDL to wayland. It will hopefully get improved even more and upstreamed soon. Here is the open source version of Doom3 runnig with this toolkit.
http://static.hackmii.com/dhewg/dhewm3_wl.webm

That alone would pretty much make porting of games almost a non-issue I think. The creator of SDL (slouken) is currently working for Valve.

It will be great when we finally get rid of all the X11 problems. No more getting stuck in limbo, when a fullscreen app changes resolution and crashes to desktop. Much better support for multiple monitor desktops. Much improved input handeling etc.
Last edited by blackout24; Jul 18, 2013 @ 12:38am
TeknoTroll Jul 18, 2013 @ 1:41am 
Originally posted by AbartigerNorbert:
Originally posted by gutigen o):

MIR Kick's ♥♥♥ even the Xorg server is going to turn into XMIR down the road

:)

Hehe, yeah like they'll ever get distro specific code upstreamed! :D

There is already a port of SDL to wayland. It will hopefully get improved even more and upstreamed soon. Here is the open source version of Doom3 runnig with this toolkit.
http://static.hackmii.com/dhewg/dhewm3_wl.webm

That alone would pretty much make porting of games almost a non-issue I think. The creator of SDL (slouken) is currently working for Valve.

It will be great when we finally get rid of all the X11 problems. No more getting stuck in limbo, when a fullscreen app changes resolution and crashes to desktop. Much better support for multiple monitor desktops. Much improved input handeling etc.

Impressive, very very impressive! Can't wait. Maybe by the end of the year some support's gonna be around. KDE is doing it in 4.11 Gnome supposedly's going to have in 3.10
gutigen o) Jul 18, 2013 @ 2:35am 
Originally posted by AbartigerNorbert:
Hehe, yeah like they'll ever get distro specific code upstreamed! :D

Tbh I don't care which graphics server my system is going to run, I just want everything to work like now (tho I expect performance boost from both MIR and Wayland vs Xorg). I keep switching every few months between Ubuntu Gnome and standard Ubuntu, so I just want my games to work flawlessly on one of those.

As a side note, it's great that Wayland has competition now, it will benefit both parties :)

Second side note, fragmentation of Linux may be it's strongest feature, since there can't be fast progress in monopoly (if there was like one distro etc).
Last edited by gutigen o); Jul 18, 2013 @ 2:38am
blackout24 Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:11am 
Originally posted by gutigen o):
Originally posted by AbartigerNorbert:
Hehe, yeah like they'll ever get distro specific code upstreamed! :D

Tbh I don't care which graphics server my system is going to run, I just want everything to work like now (tho I expect performance boost from both MIR and Wayland vs Xorg). I keep switching every few months between Ubuntu Gnome and standard Ubuntu, so I just want my games to work flawlessly on one of those.

As a side note, it's great that Wayland has competition now, it will benefit both parties :)

Second side note, fragmentation of Linux may be it's strongest feature, since there can't be fast progress in monopoly (if there was like one distro etc).

Wayland has no competiton. What do you think Mir and Wayland are competing for? Do you think Wayland tries to become the default on Ubuntu? Do you think other distros will make Mir their default, when it is clearly written only for Unity? Strangely Unity is the only non-distro agnostic desktop in the Linux world. Mir devs already said they do not intend to have a stable API ever so they can always adjust it to their needs. How do you think other projects should start using it as a base for their desktops? If you want to keep things the way they are. Stay on X11.

The main difference between Wayland and Mir is that Wayland is for everyone and promises to have a stable API so other people can work with it. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2013-July/010242.html

Of course if you only care about your own inhouse desktop you can break the API as much as you want. Nothing Canonical ever created was intended to become part of the Linux ecosystem. Why can't you simply package up Unity and install it on Debian without breaking libaries? Because it is written for Ubuntu. Just like Mir is written for Unity. They are so far behind having any upstream support for toolkits, mesa or the x server or support from other desktop enviroments that no distro other than Ubuntu will ever use it. There is simply no reason for them when, we only need the DEs to finish their work on their wayland compositors and get XWayland merged into X. After that you can have a native wayland desktops with all the Qt5 and GTK+ apps using it natively. Not like with Mir where they will always run everything on XMir. The only thing running native on Mir are QtUbuntu apps. That's it. No GTK, no EFL,no Clutter, no SDL. Mesa support only exists in some tarball in some kind of PPA somewhere on the internet. Developers don't base their projects on out of tree code.

http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/07/10/mir-for-everyone/ Read the comment from Jef Spaleta, he explains the problem quite good.
Last edited by blackout24; Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:28am
UraniumDeer Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:38am 
Originally posted by AbartigerNorbert:
Originally posted by gutigen o):

Tbh I don't care which graphics server my system is going to run, I just want everything to work like now (tho I expect performance boost from both MIR and Wayland vs Xorg). I keep switching every few months between Ubuntu Gnome and standard Ubuntu, so I just want my games to work flawlessly on one of those.

As a side note, it's great that Wayland has competition now, it will benefit both parties :)

Second side note, fragmentation of Linux may be it's strongest feature, since there can't be fast progress in monopoly (if there was like one distro etc).

Wayland has no competiton. What do you think Mir and Wayland are competing for? Do you think Wayland tries to become the default on Ubuntu? Do you think other distros will make Mir their default, when it is clearly written only for Unity? Strangely Unity is the only non-distro agnostic desktop in the Linux world. Mir devs already said they do not intend to have a stable API ever so they can always adjust it to their needs. How do you think other projects should start using it as a base for their desktops? If you want to keep things the way they are. Stay on X11.

The main difference between Wayland and Mir is that Wayland is for everyone and promises to have a stable API so other people can work with it. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2013-July/010242.html

Of course if you only care about your own inhouse desktop you can break the API as much as you want. Nothing Canonical ever created was intended to become part of the Linux ecosystem. Why can't you simply package up Unity and install it on Debian without breaking libaries? Because it is written for Ubuntu. Just like Mir is written for Unity. They are so far behind having any upstream support for toolkits, mesa or the x server or support from other desktop enviroments that no distro other than Ubuntu will ever use it. There is simply no reason for them when, we only need the DEs to finish their work on their wayland compositors and get XWayland merged into X. After that you can have a native wayland desktops with all the Qt5 and GTK+ apps using it natively. Not like with Mir where they will always run everything on XMir. The only thing running native on Mir are QtUbuntu apps. That's it. No GTK, no EFL,no Clutter, no SDL. Mesa support only exists in some tarball in some kind of PPA somewhere on the internet. Developers don't base their projects on out of tree code.

http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/07/10/mir-for-everyone/ Read the comment from Jef Spaleta, he explains the problem quite good.

Next they fork PulseAudio, and then the kernel, and the remaning bits n' bobs, they havn't tampered with. Later they start selling overpriced hardware, with their OS installed. Thier logo already looks like three people seen from above, holding hands, while dancing on an orange :P

Oh - and the three people dancing on an orange - HL3 confirmed!
Last edited by UraniumDeer; Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:42am
blackout24 Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:38am 
Originally posted by UraniumDeer:
Originally posted by AbartigerNorbert:
Not like with Mir where they will always run everything on XMir.
Seriously? Will Unity be the only thing that is MIR-native? :O
/me checks the date, only to find that it's not the first of April.

The Unity Shell is currenty being ported to QtUbuntu. That is their toolkit that has native Mir backend. The Unity Shell will be called Unity 8 in 14.04 and run native on Mir. At the moment there is only the Ubuntu Touch Unity Shell using this toolkit. Their mobile adventure is the only reason they started Mir anyway. So don't expect to much love for the desktop. It is the reason they currenty rush everything to get it out the door. Ubuntu Touch is maybe Canonicals last chance to make the Ubuntu brand really big. That's why they want their own inhouse display server that they can control and adjust it to their product. It is not intended as a contribution to the Linux ecosystem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9AzRxsnfTE

Other applications written with other toolkits, will fall back to X11 and use XMir for compatability. At the moment int 13.10 everything is just a big fullscreen X11 Window ontop of Mir where eveything is basically done by X. With 14.04 they intend to only use XMir for single legacy apps.

It is unlikely that toolkits like GTK will accept distro specific code and merge it into their upstream realease. GTK and X is also used by the BSDs for example and they don't need special treatment either. BSDs will also use wayland since the MIT license of wayland allows it. Support is already being worked on. No one would need this specific code. None of the BSDs and none of the other Linux distros. Even if they patch the libraries on their own that's probably not enough, since some applications make X11 specific calls that would have to be ported manually by changing the source code of that application.

Canonicals main problem is that they are very late to the "X11 replacement party". Everyone already started working to make the toolkits, desktops, mesa etc. work with wayland. Now they expect everyone to also embrace Mir, when there isn't even anything upstreamed so one could start using it. So no one will bother with Mir, when it doesn't provide any advantages and only means more work just to support one distro that will have X11 compatibility anyway.
Last edited by blackout24; Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:55am
DeadWire Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:49am 
Originally posted by gutigen o):
Originally posted by Doc Holliday:
Wayland Kick's ♥♥♥ even the Xorg server is going to turn into Xwayland down the road

MIR Kick's ♥♥♥ even the Xorg server is going to turn into XMIR down the road

:)

xMir is just a fork of xWayland......
DeadWire Jul 18, 2013 @ 3:57am 
Originally posted by UraniumDeer:
Originally posted by AbartigerNorbert:

Wayland has no competiton. What do you think Mir and Wayland are competing for? Do you think Wayland tries to become the default on Ubuntu? Do you think other distros will make Mir their default, when it is clearly written only for Unity? Strangely Unity is the only non-distro agnostic desktop in the Linux world. Mir devs already said they do not intend to have a stable API ever so they can always adjust it to their needs. How do you think other projects should start using it as a base for their desktops? If you want to keep things the way they are. Stay on X11.

The main difference between Wayland and Mir is that Wayland is for everyone and promises to have a stable API so other people can work with it. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2013-July/010242.html

Of course if you only care about your own inhouse desktop you can break the API as much as you want. Nothing Canonical ever created was intended to become part of the Linux ecosystem. Why can't you simply package up Unity and install it on Debian without breaking libaries? Because it is written for Ubuntu. Just like Mir is written for Unity. They are so far behind having any upstream support for toolkits, mesa or the x server or support from other desktop enviroments that no distro other than Ubuntu will ever use it. There is simply no reason for them when, we only need the DEs to finish their work on their wayland compositors and get XWayland merged into X. After that you can have a native wayland desktops with all the Qt5 and GTK+ apps using it natively. Not like with Mir where they will always run everything on XMir. The only thing running native on Mir are QtUbuntu apps. That's it. No GTK, no EFL,no Clutter, no SDL. Mesa support only exists in some tarball in some kind of PPA somewhere on the internet. Developers don't base their projects on out of tree code.

http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/07/10/mir-for-everyone/ Read the comment from Jef Spaleta, he explains the problem quite good.

Next they fork PulseAudio, and then the kernel, and the remaning bits n' bobs, they havn't tampered with. Later they start selling overpriced hardware, with their OS installed. Thier logo already looks like three people seen from above, holding hands, while dancing on an orange :P

Oh - and the three people dancing on an orange - HL3 confirmed!

At this point were just as likely to see a working HURD distro as HL3 in our lifetimes,,,,
UraniumDeer Jul 18, 2013 @ 4:04am 
Originally posted by AbartigerNorbert:
Originally posted by UraniumDeer:
Seriously? Will Unity be the only thing that is MIR-native? :O
/me checks the date, only to find that it's not the first of April.

The Unity Shell is currenty being ported to QtUbuntu. That is their toolkit that has native Mir backend. The Unity Shell will be called Unity 8 in 14.04 and run native on Mir. At the moment there is only the Ubuntu Touch Unity Shell using this toolkit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9AzRxsnfTE

Other applications written with other toolkits, will fall back to X11 and use XMir for compatability. At the moment int 13.10 everything is just a big fullscreen X11 Window ontop of Mir where eveything is basically done by X. With 14.04 they intend to only use XMir for single legacy apps.

It is unlikely that toolkits like GTK will accept distro specific code and merge it into their upstream realease. GTK and X is also used by the BSDs for example and they don't need special treatment either. No one would need this code. None of the BSDs and none of the other Linux distros. Even if they patch the libraries on their own that's probably not enough, since some applications make X11 specific calls that would have to be ported manually by changing the source code of that application.

Canonicals main problem is that they are very late to the "X11 replacement party". Everyone already started working to make the toolkits, desktops, mesa etc. work with wayland. Now they expect everyone to also embrace Mir, when there isn't even anything upstreamed so one could start using it.

I don't know the requirements for something to be upstreamed, but upstreaming stuff with a non-stable API, seems very counter-productive/intuitive. I'm not really well traversed in the repositories, and how it all works yet, but then I guess Wayland was upstreamed before it got a stable API. I just really dislike the idea of upstreaming projects, that has no intention of maintaining a stable API, especially when so much relies on that code.

So all QtUbuntu app devs, would need to recompile their apps, and force users to update them every time MIR breaks the API?

Originally posted by Dead Wire:
At this point were just as likely to see a working HURD distro as HL3 in our lifetimes,,,,
Such optimism! :P
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/half-life-3-confirmed
Last edited by UraniumDeer; Jul 18, 2013 @ 4:18am
blackout24 Jul 18, 2013 @ 4:19am 
No since QtUbuntu is their own toolkit library and Mir is their own display server, they'll just change both at the same time and provide always a compatible version of both in their repos.
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Date Posted: Jul 17, 2013 @ 1:29pm
Posts: 94