Towns > General Discussions > Topic Details
[TB] thunderw Nov 12, 2012 @ 5:10am
BEST POST SO FAR ON REASONS FOR 'HATE' AGAINST THIS GAME
I needed to copy past this statement made by another on the boards here. He is eloquent and very straightforward. The key here is that people buy Indy games and AAA titles for different reasons. And most of the Hate on this board stems directly from the ommission of the fact that this game was in Alpha stage still at the release on Steam. Stop hating back at us please. Some of us who are upset ACTUALLY LIKE THIS GAME through all the ai issues, pathing and bugs and would like to see it developed. Most of us that would have jumped in head first are upset that it SEEMS like the devs jipped us by leaving out that it was still in development.

Hating on good customers that are upset about possible deception is only going to turn the community against the game. Try to understand what we feel before flaming us and really making this about nothing when as customers we truly have a reason to be upset. And that anyone that plays indy games can agree about, when devs mislead about their game, its not the best game to support.

Now I am not saying that directly about Towns, but I am saying it SEEMS that way to all of us new to the game. So take that to heart when flaming us who are upset about the store page. And take the time to read through this post I think it is an excellent representation of why we are angry and how its not misguided.




BadeMaster GramseSpektrum 1 hour ago



Originally posted by retrox:
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If you don't like the game, that's too bad. Just leave a helpful post explaining your viewpoints to other potential customers and be on your way. I would never begrudge someone their right to do that. My argument is that the critical grounds upon which your derision of the game is based are wholly without merit.
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If I didn't like the game, that's probably exactly what I'd do. Or more likely, I would chalk it up as bad luck and not worry more about it. I'm not here complaining because I bought a bad game. I'm complaining because I bought a bad game as a result of a deceptive store page.

The part I bolded is what it really comes down to, isn't it? And that's why I'm saying your post is without substance. You say my derision of the game is without merit. But you're not explaining why. You may have slogged through all the arguments, but you haven't addressed any of them. I (and many others) have brought forth many points of critique of the game. Why are these points of critique without merit?



Originally posted by retrox:

I'll give you some irony to chew on: How about the fact that most of the people ranting that the game is "incomplete" are misrepresenting Towns in a far, far worse light than SMP or Steam could ever hope to, short of claiming that it runs on the Crytek engine?

At what point did anyone in here make a factually wrong statement about the game? All of the criticism I've seen has been anchored in explicit gripes about the game itself. That does not constitute misrepresentation.



Originally posted by retrox:
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The game does everything it says it does on the Steam page. Period. At what point did you become confused or feel misled?
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First of all, as mentioned, most of the screenshots do not actually reflect how the game plays. I already described in my last post how I felt mislead because I made the assumption that this was a release-ready game rather than an alpha version. This is not an unreasonable assumption since the store page does not in any way reflect its unfinished state. In theory they could have released a text-only game which allows you to run a city through two or three different text commands. Then they could've put in a button which opened up the same images that are passed off as screenshots of the store page, and that would technically do everything it said on the store page. But it would still be misleading.



Originally posted by retrox:
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Look, I'm all about consumer advocacy. There are publishers and developers out there who will scam you at the drop of a hat, and more on the way with new funding methods like Kickstarter seeing so much success. If you want to avoid any future catastrophic losses of less than $20 USD, perhaps you should steer clear of indie stuff in general. I'm not trying to be nasty, but I'm aware I'm coming off like that.

Seriously. Put that enthusiasm into something worthwhile. There are plenty of crooked ***holes out there who deserve it. SMP doesn't qualify.
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But that is exactly what I don't want to be the end result of this. I currently have 6 projects on my Kickstarter "supported" list - I'm not averse to supporting a project in development. However, my criteria for buying a game and supporting one in development are different. And a key one for either is that there is no misrepresentation regarding the game.

If this became the standard - games in alpha stage of testing suddenly deemed market ready, and sold without any kind of notice - then the result would be exactly what you suggest. I would stop supporting indie developers, and I would be much less willing to take a risk on a game I wasn't sure about. That would be an all-round sadder state of affairs.

And that is why this outcry isn't hateful or based on childish expectations. It's a positive and necessary thing. Because if we don't hold the developers and (when relevant) publishers responsible for their lies (in this case mostly lies of omission) - then we will inevitably reach that point. This is an erosion of mine, and many others' trust in the indie development community. And that's bad for the industry.
Last edited by BadeMaster GramseSpektrum; 1 hour ago
Showing 1-15 of 28 comments
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Ruiner Nov 12, 2012 @ 5:23am 
I just hope everyone is putting in for refunds, with enough complaints we might actually have a chance.
[TB] thunderw Nov 12, 2012 @ 5:39am 
Forgive me for posting out of quotes on this. I still haven't figured out how to quote other threads. But it's relevant. Alot of people are saying that the game is complete and the store page didn't lie. Please read below. And these statements also make me as a paying customer erally question when I will see actual updates to the most important feature flaws like towny AI problems - they make berad and leave it on the ground until you literally STOP everything else you have qued for them like mining gathering etc. even if you put hauling to top priority. They also run straight to evil baddies and die off like lemmings never calling for help or running away when they are injured like heroes do.


Originally posted by Seanbeag:
Since the release of v6 there as only been fixes and balance changes. No new features. So by your definition, v6 was the start of the beta and v7 and v8 were fixes brought about therough testing the beta. ***you can check this out bu t going to their townsgame site on the nets


Originally posted by supermalparit:
We plan to add A LOT of new features. Those features can take years to be finished. *** what does this mean???? I paid $12 for a game that isnt yet complete and I may have to wait years for it to be so, and you didn't let me know that up front before purchasing the game on your store page???? Ok I am the one at fault I understand now I suck for buying your game right? Just saying.....
The Devil's Avocado Nov 12, 2012 @ 6:29am 
Thank you for the kind words, I'm very happy you appreciated my post!

My own refund case is currently pending in Steam support. I have also made our concerns about this hurting the credibility of the Greenlight project clear there. It's my understanding that living in the EU, I have some consumer protection that may guarantee me a refund. I hope the rest of are successful as well.
CGPOTEMKINE Nov 12, 2012 @ 7:01am 
A friend succeeded in getting a refund (Europe), definitely worth a try.
Seanbeag Nov 12, 2012 @ 7:05am 
Originally posted by thunderwkr:
Forgive me for posting out of quotes on this. I still haven't figured out how to quote other threads. But it's relevant. Alot of people are saying that the game is complete and the store page didn't lie. Please read below. And these statements also make me as a paying customer erally question when I will see actual updates to the most important feature flaws like towny AI problems - they make berad and leave it on the ground until you literally STOP everything else you have qued for them like mining gathering etc. even if you put hauling to top priority. They also run straight to evil baddies and die off like lemmings never calling for help or running away when they are injured like heroes do.


Originally posted by Seanbeag:
Since the release of v6 there as only been fixes and balance changes. No new features. So by your definition, v6 was the start of the beta and v7 and v8 were fixes brought about therough testing the beta. ***you can check this out bu t going to their townsgame site on the nets


Originally posted by supermalparit:
We plan to add A LOT of new features. Those features can take years to be finished. *** what does this mean???? I paid $12 for a game that isnt yet complete and I may have to wait years for it to be so, and you didn't let me know that up front before purchasing the game on your store page???? Ok I am the one at fault I understand now I suck for buying your game right? Just saying.....

As i explained in the other thread. There are many games that release new features after release. They generally call them expansion packs and charge you for them. The problems you describe are bugs. Every game has them on release. The game was released as a complete game. it is fully playable, if a little difficult at first.
Ruiner Nov 12, 2012 @ 7:10am 
Originally posted by Seanbeag:
As i explained in the other thread. There are many games that release new features after release. They generally call them expansion packs and charge you for them. The problems you describe are bugs. Every game has them on release. The game was released as a complete game. it is fully playable, if a little difficult at first.

When did you buy your copy of the game?
Seanbeag Nov 12, 2012 @ 7:29am 
Originally posted by Ruiner:
Originally posted by Seanbeag:
As i explained in the other thread. There are many games that release new features after release. They generally call them expansion packs and charge you for them. The problems you describe are bugs. Every game has them on release. The game was released as a complete game. it is fully playable, if a little difficult at first.

When did you buy your copy of the game?

Version 0.4
Ruiner Nov 12, 2012 @ 7:33am 
Originally posted by Seanbeag:
Version 0.4

So you knew it was an unfinished product when you bought it and willingly accepted that fact?
[TB] thunderw Nov 12, 2012 @ 7:55am 
Originally posted by Seanbeag:
Originally posted by thunderwkr:
Forgive me for posting out of quotes on this. I still haven't figured out how to quote other threads. But it's relevant. Alot of people are saying that the game is complete and the store page didn't lie. Please read below. And these statements also make me as a paying customer erally question when I will see actual updates to the most important feature flaws like towny AI problems - they make berad and leave it on the ground until you literally STOP everything else you have qued for them like mining gathering etc. even if you put hauling to top priority. They also run straight to evil baddies and die off like lemmings never calling for help or running away when they are injured like heroes do.


Originally posted by Seanbeag:
Since the release of v6 there as only been fixes and balance changes. No new features. So by your definition, v6 was the start of the beta and v7 and v8 were fixes brought about therough testing the beta. ***you can check this out bu t going to their townsgame site on the nets


Originally posted by supermalparit:
We plan to add A LOT of new features. Those features can take years to be finished. *** what does this mean???? I paid $12 for a game that isnt yet complete and I may have to wait years for it to be so, and you didn't let me know that up front before purchasing the game on your store page???? Ok I am the one at fault I understand now I suck for buying your game right? Just saying.....

As i explained in the other thread. There are many games that release new features after release. They generally call them expansion packs and charge you for them. The problems you describe are bugs. Every game has them on release. The game was released as a complete game. it is fully playable, if a little difficult at first.

Seanbag, there is a distinct difference between a game that is currently in development and one that is complete where they will add in new features later. My question for you is if you actually truly believe twhat you say about the game being complete and comparing to titles released after full development is completed, would you like me, other purchasers, and even 3rd party review sites to review this game as is for its debut release??? Because if that is the case, it is one of the most terrible implemented gaems I have played.

Let me clarify that because I am not just flaming here. If all of the issues of the game are bugs then they should be fixed rather shortly and I mean in a months time right??? Are you saying that the AI issues and other problems will be shortly fixed?

I have played this game more than 20+ hours now and have a successful town with nearly 40 townies. and I know about the bugs and the ai and pathing issues and I have fixed my game play to get around them. Seriously though, the devs are expecting that the player of their game should change the way he plays the game not to get around the environament to be successful but to navigate bugs instead. So in essence when I play this game I am not fighting the dungeon or the monsters or the land or the environment built within the game to enjoy myself, I AM FIGHTING THE CODE OF THE GAME.

Some reasons why new players are having trouble:
1. Tutorial doesn't say townies will starve if you don't build a dining room area.
2. People dont't realize when they auto equip it looks for items all over the board everywhere so you are potentially sending townies to their death trying to pick up items a recently dead towny dropped after suiciding on a frogman.
3. People don't realize that in order to clean up their town of dropped items, they need to micro manage their stockpiles and also cancel all tasks so that the only one left is hauling crap - no moving hauling up the priority chain doesnt help with this. ( this I would figure to be a feature that is supposed to work, is included, and simply doesn't)
4. Tutorial is radically incomplete. It doesn't tell you that walled in buildings work better. It doesn't talk about scaffolding to resolve pathing problems and trapping townies up on top of building and them starving up there.
5. People don't realize that their townies will walk to the deepest depths of a dungeon to get drops and starve themselves to DEATH because they cant make it back in the time before they need to eat again. I mean COME ON WTF????

These are a fraction of the issues at hand in the game and I would EXPECT AND HELP THE DEVS TO FIX in a pre release game state by alpha and beta testing for them. Unfortunately, this is actually considered a full release I guess, according to you. That means I would have to judge these terrible issues as if it was a complete and stand alone item.

To paraphrse - I expect a game to be difficult, but it shouldnt be difficult to play because of poor coding and bugs, it should be difficult to play because its a new game and challenging play experience.

I stick with my original argument - any intelligent gamer can see this is an unfinished product. it simply should have been stated so in the store page and I desparately hope the devs fix this and stop misleading buyers.
_______ Nov 12, 2012 @ 8:40am 
The game wasn't/isn't in Alpha. Saying it is in Beta would be more correct.

The description should be changed to stop all the drama. It doesn't seem like they are scamming everyone and I really don't understand why all the white knights are screaming over this.

Go scream at Zynga for stealing games from Indie developers etc.
skyte100 Nov 12, 2012 @ 8:44am 
Originally posted by Alexicon:
The game wasn't/isn't in Alpha. Saying it is in Beta would be more correct.

The description should be changed to stop all the drama. It doesn't seem like they are scamming everyone and I really don't understand why all the white knights are screaming over this.

Go scream at Zynga for stealing games from Indie developers etc.
Because we were lied to. Also plenty of people hate Zynga anyway and no one cares about them compared to this. The "Knights of the Round" here want justice from the devs and things to be made right.
Ruiner Nov 12, 2012 @ 8:47am 
Originally posted by Alexicon:
The game wasn't/isn't in Alpha. Saying it is in Beta would be more correct.

The description should be changed to stop all the drama. It doesn't seem like they are scamming everyone and I really don't understand why all the white knights are screaming over this.

Go scream at Zynga for stealing games from Indie developers etc.

The description on the Greenlight page said that the game was in Alpha. That's a very quick turnaround. It went from Alpha to release, there was no beta.

Zynga is irrelevant to this game.
Fizzgig Nov 12, 2012 @ 9:15am 
I seriously dont understand all this whining. This game is in better shape than a lot of other games I've bought over the years.
[TB] thunderw Nov 12, 2012 @ 9:21am 
Hey Fizzgig. I know that most fans of this game don't understand the feelings of betrayal we have right now. Hell maybe some people that read these forums before buying the game dont get it. The truth is I feel cheated and rightly so. I was led to believe this game was out of development stages by a Store Page that ommitted the fact it was still in development.

I personally believe that the majority of hate against the game could be averted by simply changing the Store Page to accurately explaint hat the game is still in development stages and will continue to be improved upon. that is not said anywhere on the store page.

I would say as an early fan, I would actually be seriously worried about this, especially if I purchased prior to release on Steam. You may see a drastic change in how the devs continue this game after they get some money. They could call it a day and walk off breaking even. Have any of the current fans even thoguht about this????

If they didn't want people to think it was in development, why say they will continue to provide updates? And if they are going to continue to provide updates, why isn't that stated in the store page as a committment on their end????

This literally stinks of scam. Based on the response gotten here, no one really knows what the devs intend to do. Where is the committment on their end? What is to hold them to continuing on fixing the game? Their word???
retrox Nov 12, 2012 @ 10:35am 
That is a worthy post, Bademaster, I won't deny you that. It certainly deserves its own thread instead of being being buried in 7 pages of ranting; some of which, unfortunately, is my own and I've no excuse other than it was late, I was tired, and I was angry at certain things being said and done by certain posters within that thread and others. You have been one of the more civil detractors here, and I appreciate it. I hope if I said anything untoward, you will forgive me.

That said, I'll just touch on a couple of things you said, because I'm really not understanding entirely where you're coming from with some of it. Also, I'm at work so I don't have a great deal of time to devote to this at the moment.

First, you claimed that you liked the game (rather, you implied that you did not dislike it), and in the very same paragraph you referred to it twice as "a bad game." Now as far as I'm concerned, I don't waste time on games that I consider "bad," let alone claim to not dislike them. So the essence of your first point boils down to "I bought a bad game that I don't dislike." Clarify? If there is another post somewhere detailing the specific issues you have with the game, I would read it. Apologies in advance if I missed it.

I say that your position lacks merit because you are dismissing Towns as a proper and complete game, by your definition of the term, because it appears to have jumped straight from alpha to retail. Granted, you are using established software industry conventions to support your argument, which is laudable, but nothing will ever change the fact that both of us are sitting here arguing semantics. You can no more prove to me that this game is incomplete and unfit for sale by your definition than I can prove to you that it's not by mine. Hell, the only thing I have to support my argument is the ridiculous amount of time I've spent playing and enjoying the game since February. Maybe I just have bad taste in games, who knows.

I really think some folks should consider that perhaps if they don't like the game in it's current state (whatever we choose to call it), chances are they will never like the game. I think at least a few of the people who are upset had lofty expectations of this title and are disappointed with the indie-level quality of it. It's a very, very ambitious undertaking to make a complex sim game, and doubly so when there are only two guys making it.

As for you and others being tricked, scammed, or otherwise cheated and misled: I'm sorry, but I can't get behind you on this. We're doomed to disagree for as long as we're willing to discuss it I'm afraid. Your head's in the right place, but your heart isn't. My problem is the exact opposite. With the Steam release and the potential for increased funding on the future development of the project, my Towns glass is half-full. I'm sorry that yours isn't, but that's just the way of it.

It's lunch time. :)
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Date Posted: Nov 12, 2012 @ 5:10am
Posts: 28