PAYDAY 2 > 一般討論 > 主題細節
Obrium 2013 08 月 13 @ 6:37下午
Intimidation
After the last "balance" for the MM intimidation skill it has become almost entirely useless. I agree it was very OP when you were able to cuff any number of guards at once. It was less OP but still silly when you were able to cuff guards while another guard or camera watched and did nothing. It was less OP when you had to isolate a guard to cuff him but still a VERY good skill for the level you get access to it. Now however the skill is useless. It is also the only major game changing skill that a MM posesses, all of the others are interesting and sometimes really good but do not compare with the other classes skills (eg. Over9000 saw, c4, safe cracking, bagging corpses).

In my opinion instead of reducing the number of guards who can be intimidated to 1 a better balance would be to make other guards act towards cuffed guards the same way that they act to dead bodies. Guards already wernt intimidated usually if they spotted something other than you first before you shouted at them. This way you would have to isolate each guard individually for the intimidate to work, and this seems like a fair way to make the skill balanced but still useful. It is also realistic but that is usually not a concern with games so it is barely worth mentioning.

TLDR; Intimidation has become useless. Dont limit number of guards, instead limit the openness with which it can be used.
最後修改者:Obrium; 2013 08 月 13 @ 6:39下午
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Calcey 2013 08 月 19 @ 5:41下午 
I have a question:

Couldn't you just get rid of the intimidated guard and intimidate a new one? The limit is 1 at a time right, not 1 intimidation throughout the entire mission or am I wrong?
B34R 2013 08 月 19 @ 5:45下午 
If you "get rid of the guard" you have to answer the pager after they die. You can absolutely initimidate more than 1 guard during a mission but it does appear to be limited to 1 at a time even with the skill aced and a tier 6 intimidation bonus. Don't even get me started on Joker, converted enemies die way too fast on overkill, I nearly get incapped trying to convert a cop just to have them die when I fall back to cover to heal.
Calcey 2013 08 月 19 @ 5:46下午 
B34R 發表:
If you "get rid of the guard" you have to answer the pager after they die. You can absolutely initimidate more than 1 guard during a mission but it does appear to be limited to 1 at a time every with the skill aced and a tier 6 intimidation bonus. Don't even get me started on Joker, converted enemies die way too fast on overkill, I nearly get incapped trying to convert a cop just to have them die when I fall back to cover to heal.

Damn, I wanted to spec intimidation, guess not, since it's pretty bad actually.
Akutare 2013 08 月 19 @ 5:47下午 
It should either stay the way it is or be allowed to convert as many as you want but they'll be cause for alarm, and if you try to intimidate someone that found someone else intimidated, it'll be really low chance of it working.
Peanits 2013 08 月 19 @ 5:47下午 
For the sake of stealth, it's fine the way it is. But during the heist, I wouldn't mind if it's a bit easier to intimidate enemies. I think the first game was fine, to be honest. Intimidating was hard, but you could get around 2-3 FBI guys cuffed in the back.
_L1pE_ 2013 08 月 19 @ 5:49下午 
Intimidating as many guards/cops as we wanted was possible in PD1 wasn't it? So what's the problem in the sequel? Handcuffed guards should be cause for alarm, it doesn't make sense for other guards to ignore their cuffed buddies, just as it doesn't make any sense to have a hard cap of 1 intimidated guard per MM.
Fennel 2013 08 月 19 @ 5:58下午 
Personally, I think it should let us get as many as we want cuffed at the same time, but make there be diminishing returns on every intimidated cop past the first. For instance, you can intimidate any cop who has less than a certain amount of health, then the next cop you intimidate would have to have 50% of that amount, and then the next would need to have 50% of /that/ amount, and so on. That way there's more incentive to get the intimidation perks so you get that base amount of health as high as possible so you can have more cops in custody.
Peanits 2013 08 月 19 @ 5:59下午 
♠ L1pE ♠ 發表:
Intimidating as many guards/cops as we wanted was possible in PD1 wasn't it? So what's the problem in the sequel? Handcuffed guards should be cause for alarm, it doesn't make sense for other guards to ignore their cuffed buddies, just as it doesn't make any sense to have a hard cap of 1 intimidated guard per MM.
It wasn't a problem in the first game since stealth was pretty much non-existant. And being seen or killing would instantly break stealth.

In this game, however, you can cuff people in stealth. But there's also pagers. Basically, you could go around, cuff all the guards, and you'd never have to worry about them being seen, since all the guards are cuffed. As a bonus, their pager does not go off. In the beta, there was a problem with stealth. People could cuff all the guards in bank heist, never having to answer a single pager. It made it too easy.

Even if the civilians saw it, you could keep them down. If a guard saw him, you could intimidate him too.

I definitely don't thnk limiting the number of dominated guards is the right way to do it, but the only way to fix it properly is by making a really complex system for intimidation.
Admiral Kenwerd 2013 08 月 19 @ 6:00下午 
I actually prefer how it is now comparatively to beta.
Avo³ 2013 08 月 19 @ 6:00下午 
Intimidation doesn't work well for me anymore. Instead of risking them peeing their pants and screaming like sissies and firing shots everywhere. Instead, I just say F it, and shotgun them in the face and answer the damn pager.
Morty 2013 08 月 19 @ 6:01下午 
Calcey 發表:
I have a question:

Couldn't you just get rid of the intimidated guard and intimidate a new one? The limit is 1 at a time right, not 1 intimidation throughout the entire mission or am I wrong?

Yes this works I do it all the time
Hannibal 2013 08 月 19 @ 6:06下午 
♠ L1pE ♠ 發表:
Intimidating as many guards/cops as we wanted was possible in PD1 wasn't it? So what's the problem in the sequel? Handcuffed guards should be cause for alarm, it doesn't make sense for other guards to ignore their cuffed buddies, just as it doesn't make any sense to have a hard cap of 1 intimidated guard per MM.
Difference is that the security guards can be intimidated JUST by shouting, which was never the case in the first - you had to melee first at the least, and on OK145, it was a melee and a B9s shot before it'd work right. You also weren't SUPPOSED to hit them to stealth. So why not this: make it only possible to dominate people once you're going loud, since, you know, shouting "Get down on the ground!" would probably alert people to begin with. Now that it's only for the full action phase, you can go back to intimidating as many as you want and fornicate with your now dominated guards.
Either that, or allow the dominated guards to be able to call you in unless being watched because that pager is there for a reason, to make sure everything's fine, and I'm sure if somebody didn't get an answer back they'd call you in.
Seriously.
What you're basically saying is "WHY WON'T YOU LET US JUST YELL AT EVERYONE TO "STEALTH"!?" And that's the stupidest question ever.
_L1pE_ 2013 08 月 19 @ 6:18下午 
Hannibal 發表:
♠ L1pE ♠ 發表:
Intimidating as many guards/cops as we wanted was possible in PD1 wasn't it? So what's the problem in the sequel? Handcuffed guards should be cause for alarm, it doesn't make sense for other guards to ignore their cuffed buddies, just as it doesn't make any sense to have a hard cap of 1 intimidated guard per MM.
Difference is that the security guards can be intimidated JUST by shouting, which was never the case in the first - you had to melee first at the least, and on OK145, it was a melee and a B9s shot before it'd work right. You also weren't SUPPOSED to hit them to stealth. So why not this: make it only possible to dominate people once you're going loud, since, you know, shouting "Get down on the ground!" would probably alert people to begin with. Now that it's only for the full action phase, you can go back to intimidating as many as you want and fornicate with your now dominated guards.
Either that, or allow the dominated guards to be able to call you in unless being watched because that pager is there for a reason, to make sure everything's fine, and I'm sure if somebody didn't get an answer back they'd call you in.
Seriously.
What you're basically saying is "WHY WON'T YOU LET US JUST YELL AT EVERYONE TO "STEALTH"!?" And that's the stupidest question ever.

How about just making yelling be cause for alarm within a certain radius if there is a guard within that radius that you're not pointing your gun at.
[TGM]gcarrara 2013 08 月 19 @ 6:36下午 
Peanits 發表:
For the sake of stealth, it's fine the way it is. But during the heist, I wouldn't mind if it's a bit easier to intimidate enemies. I think the first game was fine, to be honest. Intimidating was hard, but you could get around 2-3 FBI guys cuffed in the back.

It's fine because right now an intimidated guard is a 100% safe way to dispatch a guard! Whenever you are, wherever you are. Once they're intimidated they become invisible to the world...
Of corse with these imbalanced advantages is fine for the sake of stealth. But wouldn't be better to remove that limit and add some more interactions from an intimidated guard and the world outside? Obrium already listed all (literally, i don't think he left out anything) the right mechanics to add that the community came up with, which would add a new layer of difficulty using the intimidation (stealth wise).

Post-Stealth wise, i don't even need to say anything... Intimidating has never have been a problem on Payday 1, when all 4 players could do it. Now that there are a lot of days where there aren't hostages not only you need atleast a player with the skill (which i can accept as a decision. It add importance to those players who spec some points on mastermind), but that player alone cannot save 3 players during a single assault break. Because you have to intimidate a cop, wait for the trade, search for another cop, wait for the second trade, search for another cop again (which on harder difficulties fails, because the next assault has already started).

On Payday 1 i was the intimidator, and i got good enough to be able to manage to save all my 3 teammates during an assault break. But i was able to do that because while Bain was trading with the cops (10 second in total since you get an hostage until you can free him to rescue a teammate), i could proceed and go for my next intimidation. Here on Payday 2 this is not possible because you have to stand next to the intimidated cop for those 10 seconds, or being forced to kill those who would be your future assets... Too many flaws just to fix an imbalanced skill (stealth wise), which would have been fixed mainly by considering an intimidated cop as a tied civilian/downed civilian/panicked civilian/dead bodies/sign of intrusion (like a broken window) / (add here what else).

I'm still hoping Overkill will not pass over this issue... Crippling a skill in a bad way like that instead of fixing the "I'm kneeling because i'm tying my shoe! Suspicious?! Why would you even think that!" part, is not a well executed fix! Especially when i'll never forget when i managed to mid-intimidate a green military (2/3 shout), and on the next shout i hit his armored heavy fbi tan partner, which entered through the door next to him, which started to surrender too!
So i decided to finish him first, being the dangerous one. The moment i finished, the green military (which already dropped his weapon) came to the conclusion that the situation was unacceptable, and used his magic power to teleport his dropped weapon back on his hands to shoot me. Obviously having already another dominated cop, i had to kill him... Yep that day i only managed to save 1 out of 3 players. When i could have freed a second one.

Please Overkill, think about it! Just add that "suspicious" flag on intimidated cop and remove the limit! It would fix the stealth problem and it would leave to a skilled dominator it's usefullness during the fights!

Peanits 發表:
It wasn't a problem in the first game since stealth was pretty much non-existant. And being seen or killing would instantly break stealth.

In this game, however, you can cuff people in stealth. But there's also pagers. Basically, you could go around, cuff all the guards, and you'd never have to worry about them being seen, since all the guards are cuffed. As a bonus, their pager does not go off. In the beta, there was a problem with stealth. People could cuff all the guards in bank heist, never having to answer a single pager. It made it too easy.

Even if the civilians saw it, you could keep them down. If a guard saw him, you could intimidate him too.

I definitely don't thnk limiting the number of dominated guards is the right way to do it, but the only way to fix it properly is by making a really complex system for intimidation.

A guard who was discovered something suspicious (or to better say, a guard which don't get "shouted" within a second since the got the exclamation mark, was already (and still is if i'm not wrong) impossible to intimidate. Only surprised guard could be intimidated.
Intimidating a third guards means that you have 2 hot spots which could be seen in moments while you go for the third guard. Then there would be 3 hot spots while you go for the fourth, and so on. Skills are required by all the players to spread and keep under control the hot spots. It wouldn't be easier than to kill a guard, answer the pager and bag him. ;)


Hannibal 發表:
Difference is that the security guards can be intimidated JUST by shouting, which was never the case in the first - you had to melee first at the least, and on OK145, it was a melee and a B9s shot before it'd work right. You also weren't SUPPOSED to hit them to stealth. So why not this: make it only possible to dominate people once you're going loud, since, you know, shouting "Get down on the ground!" would probably alert people to begin with. Now that it's only for the full action phase, you can go back to intimidating as many as you want and fornicate with your now dominated guards.
Either that, or allow the dominated guards to be able to call you in unless being watched because that pager is there for a reason, to make sure everything's fine, and I'm sure if somebody didn't get an answer back they'd call you in.
Seriously.
What you're basically saying is "WHY WON'T YOU LET US JUST YELL AT EVERYONE TO "STEALTH"!?" And that's the stupidest question ever.

For the yell part it would require a general overhaul. Because it would be unreal too that you could manage to yell in a store without getting spotted by civlians on the road or across the street, or even on the room next to it. So i wouldn't focus that much on that "unrealistic" part.
Obrium 2013 08 月 19 @ 6:40下午 
There isnt even need for a ridiculously conplicated intimidation system. Other guards already get alerted by seeing a guard being cuffed. Guards and civilians get alerted by seeing other civilians tied up with wire ties. All they have to do is make it so that civilians also get alerted by a guard being shouted down. In addition make it so that cuffed guards are not invisible to everything and simply are in the same group as the tied civilians (can be seen by guards and civilians and cause alert).

This would make it balanced and fair but would allow the ability a little more power to be actually useful and not just a little party trick of "o watch the civilians ignore this guy while he handcuffs himself :D"
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張貼日期: 2013 08 月 13 @ 6:37下午
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