Wise Joe Aug 15, 2014 @ 10:07pm
Why?
Why is it in these kinds of games I am always starting out undergunned. Really, why would I take a pistol to a military zone where I will be facing rifles? And, what's up with all the disappearing weapons? If I kill a rifleman with my pistol *sigh* then I should be able to pick up that rifle and ammo and solve my undergunned problem.

Why, why, why do so many games do this? Ugh, so unenjoyable!!!

I really get tired of trying to cover deadly ground so I can get in range to shoot back. Meanwhile, I am shooting the bad guys three, four times for them to go down. One or two hits on me and I am dead. *sigh* So unenjoyable.

Come on! What is that about, Devs of all such games??
Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
< >
DaetherX Aug 18, 2014 @ 10:24am 
I agree.
In Metal Gear Solid they at least said that their guns were coded to the person, which is something that could happen with todays tech, and which I expect to be on Police firearms within a few decades. But considering the screenshots are in some jungle I doubt they have any high-tech stuff like that, and it would actually be beneficial for them not to so they pass weapons easier.

But there's really no excuse 99.99% of the time in these games. As for the shots to kill, they maybe have better armor than you. Like maybe Kevlar Vest vs Military Ceramic Plate/Scale Armor. It's much easier to penetrate kevlar with steel core rifle rounds, while a pistol round will jack squat to military armor. So basically you're having to hit a vital spot.
HackOfAllTrades Aug 18, 2014 @ 11:27am 
The devs had nothing to do with it. Wildfire started life as a mod for hardcore fans who wanted a serious challenge. If you want to see what JA2 was supposed to look like, try JA2 Gold. Opinions vary as to whether or not Wildfire is any good or not, but everyone agrees it's brutally difficult, compared to the original.

That's not to say some of those problems won't carry over, even in JA2 Gold, but the game's a lot more forgiving, so they're less frustrating. Yes, you'll probably start with pistols, but so does the enemy, making for a much more even playing field. As for why they do that, it's because it's a long game, and if they gave you the best toys, right out of the gate, there'd be no progression, and you'd have nothing but 30 hours of the exact same missions over and over again. This way, you get to see your mercs get better over the course of the game, both because they're better equipped and because and because they, themselves, have gotten better.

As for dropping the guns when they die, the reason they don't is because it'd make the game too easy. After just a few battles, you'd be positively swimming in military hardware. Instead, they'll only drop guns once in a while. Is it less realistic? Sure, but it makes for a better balanced game. You should still end up with more guns than you know what to do with (at least in the original JA2; I can't speak to the balance of Wildfire).
Last edited by HackOfAllTrades; Aug 18, 2014 @ 11:28am
Hydra_360ci Aug 19, 2014 @ 11:29am 
... the auto win button is Alt-F4.
Wise Joe Aug 19, 2014 @ 9:07pm 
Originally posted by Hydra_360ci:
... the auto win button is Alt-F4.

Excellent Hydra! That is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you so so so so so much!!!!

NOT!
Wise Joe Aug 19, 2014 @ 9:10pm 
Thanks for the reply DaetherX. I didn't really expect any responses.

I can see what you are saying about the armor. However, it was still occuring after I had the same armor as the enemy.
Wise Joe Aug 19, 2014 @ 9:21pm 
Thanks for the reply HackOfAllTrades. From a game playing perspective I can see your point. Though, I don't agree with it. I think there are other ways to show improvement. Like certain skill increases, or new skills learned through experience at firefights. I don't know what those new skills are, but just thinking that would be a better way of showing improvement instead of using increase in the tools available for use as the way of showing improvement.

I know this is not X-Com, and I know I risk people saying I want to make Jagged Alliance an X-com knockoff, but that is not what my next comments are about. It is just an example. I think X-com handled it correctly. I may have been outgunned at the beginning because of the difference in technology. However, if they could reach out and touch me, I could reach out and touch them. So, the risks in my tactical movements were the same for the enemy. So, they couldn't just sit there and make me cross deadly ground to get in range to hit them. Both parties need to manuever to get a kill. To me, that isn't fun, it's not a challenge, it's a waste of time and frustration.

But, that is just me. I am sure there are others that love that game play.
HackOfAllTrades Aug 19, 2014 @ 10:36pm 
Originally posted by Wise Joe:
Thanks for the reply HackOfAllTrades. From a game playing perspective I can see your point. Though, I don't agree with it. I think there are other ways to show improvement. Like certain skill increases, or new skills learned through experience at firefights. I don't know what those new skills are, but just thinking that would be a better way of showing improvement instead of using increase in the tools available for use as the way of showing improvement.
We'll probably have to agree to disagree on that point, but another thing to consider is that, by doling out the guns and assorted hardware in a steady trickle, the game doesn't overburden the player with options. In the beginning, your loadouts are pretty simply, because you don't really have a whole lot of options to choose from. But then you find a new gun or piece of equipment and decide to try it out in the next battle. Over the course of the game, you've added so much equpiment that you've got healing supplies, various types of grenades, armor, inserts, more guns than you can shake a really big stick at, multiple ammo types for most of them, plus a bevy of attachments ... and you're managing it all like it's second nature.

Rather than dropping a mountain of gear on your head all at once and expecting you to sort through it all, which is likely to be overwhelming to someone who couldn't tell you the difference between (or possibly never even heard of) a C-7 or a Steyr AUG, you only have to learn about a few new items at any given time.

I know this is not X-Com, and I know I risk people saying I want to make Jagged Alliance an X-com knockoff, but that is not what my next comments are about. It is just an example. I think X-com handled it correctly. I may have been outgunned at the beginning because of the difference in technology. However, if they could reach out and touch me, I could reach out and touch them.
That's only true in broad daylight. If you're ever forced to fight at night, you're at a huge disadvantage. (I'm assuming, by the hyphen, you mean classic, X-Com, the one released in '94, not the Firaxis remake.)

So, the risks in my tactical movements were the same for the enemy. So, they couldn't just sit there and make me cross deadly ground to get in range to hit them. Both parties need to manuever to get a kill. To me, that isn't fun, it's not a challenge, it's a waste of time and frustration.
Well, like I said, a lot of that was exacerbated by the mod. In the original JA2, things weren't nearly as lopsided. Take the very first battle, when your mercs first touch down. Not only are the enemy soldiers armed with pistols, like your guys, giving them comparable range and accuracy (some people claim the RNG gives them better odds, but I'm not entirely convinced, and more importantly, there are things you can do to lure the enemies into range, without having to charge head-first into the line of fire), there only 3 or 4 of 'em, not 10-12 like in Wildfire, so while you may not immediately be in the best position, you don't need to hold out nearly as long.

As for having to cross deadly ground to get into range, there are usually alternatives, such as ducking back around corners to lure the enemy toward you and, when possible, choosing to fight at night. Without night-vision goggles, by the time you can see the enemy, you'll be in pistol range. Since the enemy's in the same boat, it levels the playing field a bit. By the time the enemy does have night-vision goggles, you should have weapons that can hit them at range ... and, with any luck, a pair or two of goggles, yourself. The point is, yes, the game presents you with some early handicaps, but there are tactical solutions that allow you to minimize the impact of those handicaps until you can find better gear. (Note: These observations are based on the original JA2. I just picked up Wildfire -- it's dirt cheap, right now, and I had some money from selling trading cards, so technically, it didn't cost me a cent -- and haven't gotten far enough to see how the progression compares.)
Last edited by HackOfAllTrades; Aug 19, 2014 @ 10:40pm
Wise Joe Aug 20, 2014 @ 9:19pm 
Again, thanks for the reply HackOfAllTrades. All good points you make. For the record, I wasn't losing my mercs or losing the battles. I get the tatics. And, when there is plenty of cover in which to advance via leaps and bounds I am okay with it. (I was getting annoyed at having to bandage up so much though when, in my opinion, the enemy shouldn't have been able to shoot me.)

For me, the really annoying situations are where you have to cover open ground, because like you, your opponent is smart and doesn't want to charge across open ground, and the map is such that you can't really make a flanking move and they have range on you (because they have rifles and you have pistols/shotguns/throwing knifes/etc.). That is the annoying situation.

Being an actual army infantry vet, my natural tactics are to suppress and bound and flank. I don't like just sitting on defense waiting for the opponent to come to me. I want to seek to dislodge and destroy. In real life, this is because the last thing I want to happen is to be in a long lasting firefight in hostile territory that is going to bring enemy reinforcements while I am not in control of, and have not secured, the battlespace.

I know that my firefight with the enemy in this game isn't going to attract a quick reaction force. But, still, it is my natural instinct.

Having said all of that, my complaint wasn't just lodged at this game. It was lodged at a lot of these kinds of games where one starts out so outclassed. Like, starting a game with cloth armor and sticks and being expected to fight heavily armored knights or fire breathing dragons. And, it isn't till after your 50th fight that you actually get some good armor and weapons drop kind of thing. I know I am exaggerating there, but it communicates my general frustration with these kinds of games.

So, I suppose, some people prefer to play the games along the themes you give. It isn't my preference. That's all. So, was just voicing my personal frustration in case it might have rung true for some developers of future and similar games.

Final, having said all of that... :-) I am digging the new Jagged Alliance Flashback. While I started with a pistol, I was able to pick up a rifle drop and some armor drop right after the first fight, which was pretty easy to win. The fights are more enjoyable since I can actually exchange fire at an equal distance to the enemies ability. (Though I am disappointed that there is no mechanism for suppression to provide cover for my bounding and/or flanking team. But, maybe that is coming.)

Again, thanks for sharing your perspective gaming bro!
Brimshae Sep 1, 2014 @ 11:03am 
I'm a little late to the party, but you may want to look up the v1.13 mods for original JA2 and for Wildfire. You might find them a little more palatable than the original game.
Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
< >
Per page: 15 30 50