Magic 2014 > General Discussions > Topic Details
Nikademis Dec 13, 2013 @ 12:19am
Protean Hydra w/ Indestructibility dies
My 4/4 Protean Hydra /w indestructibility enchantment keeps dying and I'm not sure why. I have had this happen 3 times now. The first time I was blocked by a 4/4 flyer, and both creatures died (this actually happened 2 of the 3 times). The other time I was blocked by a host of 1/1 and 1/2 creatures, with the same result.

As I understand it, "if an indestructible permanent has been dealt enough damage to destroy it it is not destroyed." What am I missing here? Is there a chance this is a bug? Or am misunderstanding Indestructable?
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his1nightmare Dec 13, 2013 @ 12:30am 
Indestructible only prevents destruction from any type of damage and an effect that would destroy a card. That means, e.g., having a toughness of 0 will actually kill your card.
Now to take a look at the Hydra. It has a toughness of 0 at all times, but +X +1/+1 counters. What exactly happens if you deal damage to such a creature? Its toughness will drop below 0 (exactly this). If it occurs that your Hydra has something like -5 toughness and +4 +1/+1 counters, it will have -1 toughness in the end.
It will not survive the battle because it was dealt lethal damage, and it will not survive by indestructibility because it's toughness, without any counters, was below or equal 0.

To clarify: enough -1/-1 counters can kill an indestructible creature too.
Last edited by his1nightmare; Dec 13, 2013 @ 12:32am
Yondar Dec 13, 2013 @ 6:05pm 
Originally posted by nikademis3:
As I understand it, "if an indestructible permanent has been dealt enough damage to destroy it it is not destroyed." What am I missing here?

Well, for one thing, the fact that all damage to Protean Hydra is prevented, as it clearly says on the card. Really, people, read the god-damn cards.

Last edited by Yondar; Dec 13, 2013 @ 6:05pm
his1nightmare Dec 13, 2013 @ 6:40pm 
Originally posted by Yondar:
Well, for one thing, the fact that all damage to Protean Hydra is prevented, as it clearly says on the card. Really, people, read the god-damn cards.

10/10 for autism.
Yondar Dec 13, 2013 @ 10:06pm 
Originally posted by his1nightmare:
10/10 for autism.

Not yet, promo codes don't work.
juchess Dec 14, 2013 @ 8:35am 
his1nightmare's explanation is close to fully explaining what happens. Indestructible prevents "destroy" effects; a creature dealt "lethal damage" (damage equal or greater than the creature's toughness) is destroyed by game rules. So combat damage, direct damage, and effects that say "destroy" can't kill a creature with indestructible.

The Hydra has text that changes how it's affected by damage. The Hydra takes no damage, which means it is never normally destroyed by combat damage or direct damage anyway. Basically, giving the Hydra the Indestructibility enchantment only protects it from "destroy" effects like Doom Blade or Day of Judgment. The Hydra does die like anything else when its toughness is reduced to 0 or less. If a 4/4 Hydra (0/0 with 4 +1/+1 counters) would be dealt 4 or more damage, that damage is prevented and all 4 +1/+1 counters are removed. It becomes a 0/0 with indestructible, which means it is sent straight to the graveyard without being destroyed by game rules.

Protean Hydra works better when it's given a buff in toughness through something that's not +1/+1 counters. An example would be Glorious Anthem, which gives all creatures +1/+1, or even Oakenform, which gives it +3/+3. With those out, it can only die through destroy effects and be involved in combat all day without worry (and it would only ever get stronger in combat).
his1nightmare Dec 14, 2013 @ 10:36am 
Oops, I mistook the question for primordial with an ind. enchantment on it.
Well, juchess fixed the issues, thanks.

Now it also makes way more sense, as the primordial actually wouldn't die in such a case and expected it to be a bug and its only possible explanation is what I wrote.
<_<
Last edited by his1nightmare; Dec 14, 2013 @ 1:46pm
Thanatos Dec 14, 2013 @ 11:13am 
Originally posted by Yondar:
Originally posted by nikademis3:
As I understand it, "if an indestructible permanent has been dealt enough damage to destroy it it is not destroyed." What am I missing here?

Well, for one thing, the fact that all damage to Protean Hydra is prevented, as it clearly says on the card. Really, people, read the god-damn cards.

Read the rest of the card. :P
A Puzzlemint of Legend Dec 14, 2013 @ 3:12pm 
The rest of the card is irrelevant in regards to how it interacts with Indestructibility.
Tomahawk Dec 14, 2013 @ 8:34pm 
i disagree with everyone.
Muerkier Dec 16, 2013 @ 12:25pm 
Juchess hit the nail on the head .... NOTHING can survive with a zero toughness. The Hydra took 4 or more points of damage, the damage was prevented by removing a +1/+1 counter per point of damage. Once the creature became a 0/0 it was gone regardless if it had Indestructible on it or not.
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Date Posted: Dec 13, 2013 @ 12:19am
Posts: 10