Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed Collection

Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed Collection

Vis statistikk:
Mehbah 15. mars 2013 kl. 7.00
Fix the AI - it's literally cheating.
When they aren't bullying you into submission by focusing all weapon attacks at you, they're literally cheating with their speeds. I keep getting outrun by low-speed characters like AiAi and Meemee, on straightaways, WHILE THEY ALSO GET ATTACKED. They outrun me while they're being hit by attacks, without boosts. That's even though I'm using console mod Eggman, who has a speed stat of 5 and a boost stat of 4. Every single other opponent still manages to drive faster than me, even when I'm at top speed. Oh, and they all have pretty much instant acceleration.

They also magically know exactly where I'm driving even if they can't see me, because I keep getting hit by ice and missiles fired by AI opponents much further ahead of me as I come out of curves. They completely ignore the four other AI opponents that are close to them, or even ahead of them, to fire their weapons extreme distances backwards in order to hit me in situations where I have no way of seeing the attacks in time to avoid. They have a drone in second place as we're approaching the finish line? They would rather fire it back a long distance at me instead of at the AI in the lead, just to ensure other AIs can pass me.

I've already beaten the world tour events and the six first grand prixes on expert, but I'm seriously tired of trying to win the rogue cup in mirror mode against AIs that outspeed me, accelerate better than me, have perfect handling and that have perfect weapon aim (with which they focus all attacks on me even when it's tactically unsound).
< >
Viser 115 av 185 kommentarer
@Mehbah

Isn't that kinda the point of S-class? To be seriously difficult and challenge whatever the player's got? :y

Plus they're AI's. If you're to nerf them for S-class, then there'd be no point of having an S-class difficulty in the first place. Also, I don't think there's any other way to make an AI much MUCH more challenging to race against other than aggressive rubberbanding and super-accurate weapon shots. :u
Djawed 15. mars 2013 kl. 7.29 
Yeah its about winning "the game". Not how realistic things are and look while you win the game. Take in mind this isnt a race simulator but simply a fantastical fun racing game
Sist redigert av Djawed; 15. mars 2013 kl. 7.41
Processor 15. mars 2013 kl. 7.43 
It seems you can be the best player in the world at this game and still lose to the AI on expert. It really doesn't matter how good you get at it, the AI will beat you from time to time due to random chaos. I'm perfectly okay with this. It means the game will always be challenging to some extent. An online match on the other hand... now that's where things get really crazy (and really fun).
A Fat, Angry Serval 15. mars 2013 kl. 7.45 
I agree with you that S-Class is a bit too hard for a kart racing game (it's just right for a Danmaku Bullethell, though XD). Still, it's not impossible.

Try Metal Sonic or Shadow with Acceleration if you're having trouble with getting hit, or Vyse or Sonic with Speed if it's the AI's speed that's the main problem (the latter is how I finally got enough stars to unlock Reala and AGES). Ultimately, it takes practice.

You should also check out the guides section.

Opprinnelig skrevet av 2007excalibur2007 {MOBILE}:
Also, I don't think there's any other way to make an AI much MUCH more challenging to race against other than aggressive rubberbanding and super-accurate weapon shots. :u

Make them take better lines on higher difficulties? Have them make the most out of their items (I'm pretty sure there's some sort of logic behind having blowfish on the outside of a turn, but I'm not seeing it)? Program them to attempt risk boosts on Normal and above? There's a lot of things that can be done, it's just that it takes less time and effort to give the AI unfair advantages to cover their weaknesses than it does to actually make the AI good at the game. If SUMO didn't have to deal with executive meddling, I'm sure they would have done a lot more with the AI.
ronny b. gud 15. mars 2013 kl. 8.05 
IMO defeating terribly rubberbandy AI isn't as much a test of mastery as it is a test of patience, but that's how most racing games against AI controlled racers work. It is very frustrating and not at all rewarding when you finally beat them, but complaining won't work. The entire genre would need fixing, not just this one game... and I imagine there are good reasons for not creating an AI that just kicks ass with the same tools available as you and instead resorting to this. Maybe it's just impossible, and any average player could just easily pull ahead, who knows.

It's a shame, because I think this is pretty boring, but hey. You can see that people generally don't seem to mind, and nobody ever listens to minorities in those circlejerky game communities.
Finzy 15. mars 2013 kl. 8.05 
I find the expert AI to be very easy to beat in a standard race, if it didn't have those advantages there'd be no point to even having such a difficulty. I like it the way it is, actually I would even like a difficulty level higher than expert. :P

I don't feel that they cheat much either, if I drive and boost flawlessly at top speed throughout the track, it's fairly easy to make a long gap between your position and theirs (and there is no rubberbanding, so once you make that distance in the 2nd lap or so, it can only grow - I have never experienced rubberbanding myself in this game).

Also, if the AI "weapon spam" annoys you, just try multiplayer matchmaking and say that again...I find the AI much more friendly to play with than humans. They also don't have a 50% chance of knocking you miles away off the track everytime you collide with them.
Sist redigert av Finzy; 15. mars 2013 kl. 8.08
Djawed 15. mars 2013 kl. 8.11 
Opprinnelig skrevet av Processor:
It seems you can be the best player in the world at this game and still lose to the AI on expert. It really doesn't matter how good you get at it, the AI will beat you from time to time due to random chaos. I'm perfectly okay with this. It means the game will always be challenging to some extent. An online match on the other hand... now that's where things get really crazy (and really fun).
No that's not true. Believe me when I say, up when you surpass a certain point of "skill" or whatever ya wanna call it, even the expert AI becomes a breeze. It depends on the person. I think expert is perfect as a mode but i've seen some guys actually ask for even harsher difficulty mode.

The way I see expert is, the mode you wanna do once you master the mechanics, and after that, expert makes you a pro
Processor 15. mars 2013 kl. 10.04 
Opprinnelig skrevet av Djawed:
Opprinnelig skrevet av Processor:
It seems you can be the best player in the world at this game and still lose to the AI on expert. It really doesn't matter how good you get at it, the AI will beat you from time to time due to random chaos. I'm perfectly okay with this. It means the game will always be challenging to some extent. An online match on the other hand... now that's where things get really crazy (and really fun).
No that's not true. Believe me when I say, up when you surpass a certain point of "skill" or whatever ya wanna call it, even the expert AI becomes a breeze. It depends on the person. I think expert is perfect as a mode but i've seen some guys actually ask for even harsher difficulty mode.

The way I see expert is, the mode you wanna do once you master the mechanics, and after that, expert makes you a pro

I don't think you entirely understood what I was saying. I guarantee you if you choose Single Race, then choose Expert on the very first track and keep retrying it... you will eventually lose. Everyone likes to boast that they've "mastered" a game but you can't honestly sit here and try to convince everyone that you can keep playing on expert and always get 1st place every single time. You may get 1st place a majority of the time but everyone is prone to losing on expert mode eventually. I understand some characters with certain mods make certain races easier but it's like they say... you can't win'em all.
GreenSwede 15. mars 2013 kl. 10.22 
Opprinnelig skrevet av Processor:
You may get 1st place a majority of the time but everyone is prone to losing on expert mode eventually. I understand some characters with certain mods make certain races easier but it's like they say... you can't win'em all.
Of course, this is a kart racing game after all. Playing Boost Race with Expert bots is one thing, but playing with items can grant bad luck.
S0L 15. mars 2013 kl. 11.07 
So an interesting discussion :)

Here is the one interesting fact about the AI... We have to dumb it down. We actually make it artificially stupid...

Why?

1. They'd hit you perfectly with every shot. They know exactly when to fire to hit perfectly with every weapon.

2. They can perfectly drift every corner (and chain drifts), stunt perfectly everywhere a stunt is possible, transform boost every gate where it's allowed and risk boost off every single risk boostable object in the game (they see the world as collision, not pretty graphics!)

3. They wouldn't be limited by each other actions. You know as a player how annoying it is to be hit multiple times in a row. We actually limit that, we could let them really go to town on you.

4. We could let them all run full speed. We do pick a few and let them be the front runners in a given race, the ones who nip at your heels all the way through a GP, the rest are slowed, we could let them all run full speed...

5. We could make it their sole purpose in life to take out the player and work together as a team, instead we tell them to randomly pick targets or play nice with each other in the purposes of making an interesting race.

We actually don't really rubber band them. In some occasions we allow them to have increased engine power if they are trailing significantly, but they're not allowed to do it near to the player.

When you get to Expert AI, we actually are letting the AI be themselves more, pray mere human mortals, we don't remove their 'Three law' Asimov limitations and let them loose on you for real :)

---
S0L
---
Sist redigert av S0L; 15. mars 2013 kl. 13.37
Meturoido 15. mars 2013 kl. 12.38 
Don't see why the fuss, it's been like that on Mario Kart for ages, every since the very first one on the SNES.

From easy to hard, normal increasingly difficulty opponent behavior.
Expert mode, they obviously "cheat" on you, and you still found a way to win it all.

It's a matter of actually wanting to play a good challenging game, what's wrong with humans these days, we no longer want to outsmart a machine.

-.-

devotedtodreams 15. mars 2013 kl. 13.19 
Opprinnelig skrevet av S0L:
So an interesting discussion :)

Here is the one interesting fact about the AI... We have to dumb it down. We actually make it artificially stupid...

Why?

1. They'd hit you perfectly with every shot. They know exactly when to fire to hit perfectly with every weapon.

2. They can perfectly drift every corner (and chain drifts), stunt perfectly everywhere a stunt is possible, transform boost every gate where it's allowed and risk boost off every single risk boostable object in the game (they see the world as collision, not pretty graphics!)

3. They wouldn't be limited by each other actions. You know as a player how annoying it is to be hit multiple times in a row. We actually limit that, we could let them really go to town on you.

4. We could let them all run full speed. We do pick a few and let them be the front runners in a given race, the ones who nip at your heels all the way through a GP, the rest are slowed, we could let them all run full speed...

5. We could make it their sole purpose in life to take out the player and work together as a team, instead we tell them to randomly pick targets or play nice with each other in the purposes of making an interesting race.

We actually don't really rubber band them. In some occasions we allow them to have increased engine power if they are trailing significantly, but they're not allowed to do it near to the player.

When you get to Expert AI, we actually are letting the AI be themselves more, prey mere human mortals, we don't remove their 'Three law' Asimov limitations and let them loose on you for real :)

---
S0L
---

...Holy cow, I'm at a loss for words. PrimeSonic said it best; this is epic. I'll definitely make sure to remind myself of this whenever I should happen to yell at the AI because I think they're being "unfair" ;)
(But seriously, while S-class AI can be a ♥♥♥♥♥ sometimes, I do like the challenge they pose, no complaints from me about this.)
Zork Nemesis 15. mars 2013 kl. 15.26 
Opprinnelig skrevet av S0L:
So an interesting discussion :)

Here is the one interesting fact about the AI... We have to dumb it down. We actually make it artificially stupid...

Why?

1. They'd hit you perfectly with every shot. They know exactly when to fire to hit perfectly with every weapon.

2. They can perfectly drift every corner (and chain drifts), stunt perfectly everywhere a stunt is possible, transform boost every gate where it's allowed and risk boost off every single risk boostable object in the game (they see the world as collision, not pretty graphics!)

3. They wouldn't be limited by each other actions. You know as a player how annoying it is to be hit multiple times in a row. We actually limit that, we could let them really go to town on you.

4. We could let them all run full speed. We do pick a few and let them be the front runners in a given race, the ones who nip at your heels all the way through a GP, the rest are slowed, we could let them all run full speed...

5. We could make it their sole purpose in life to take out the player and work together as a team, instead we tell them to randomly pick targets or play nice with each other in the purposes of making an interesting race.

---
S0L
---

Can we have this as a Legendary Difficulty or something? Nothing encourages mastery quite like taking on Perfect Play AI.
Shred VII 15. mars 2013 kl. 15.51 
Opprinnelig skrevet av <eVa>Zork Nemesis:
Can we have this as a Legendary Difficulty or something? Nothing encourages mastery quite like taking on Perfect Play AI.

Dear lord, YES. I want that. I NEED that.
Mehbah 15. mars 2013 kl. 16.30 
Opprinnelig skrevet av S0L:
1. They'd hit you perfectly with every shot. They know exactly when to fire to hit perfectly with every weapon.

They still have ridiculous accuracy. They manage to single the human player out from extreme distances even when they shouldn't even be able to see you.

3. They wouldn't be limited by each other actions. You know as a player how annoying it is to be hit multiple times in a row. We actually limit that, we could let them really go to town on you.

Then what kind of limits do you have in place? The AI absolutely loves you shower you in weapons over and over. And for that matter, you wouldn't need to limit it if you didn't make the AI attack the player with extreme prejudice. Sure, they occasionally attack each other, but if they are able to hit you instead of another player, you can damn well expect to be the targeted one. They will consistently ignore the racer in front of them in order to fire weapons backwards at you even when you're not a threat. They would rather get second place and ensure that you drop from third to sixth right before the finish line than shoot the AI ahead of them and get first place. It's ridiculous.

For a concrete example, I recently kept getting outsped by Knuckles and MeeMee or AiAi. I was using a console mod Eggman. With mods, the monkeys' speed stat doesn't go above 3 and Knuckles' doesn't go above 4. My speed stat was 5. Unless the game's listed stats are wrong, they were clearly cheating.

5. We could make it their sole purpose in life to take out the player and work together as a team, instead we tell them to randomly pick targets or play nice with each other in the purposes of making an interesting race.

They AREN'T a team. They SHOULDN'T be working together. That you don't make them gang up on the human isn't something I can see as a plus when they shouldn't be doing that anyway.

We actually don't really rubber band them. In some occasions we allow them to have increased engine power if they are trailing significantly, but they're not allowed to do it near to the player.

I simply have to call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on this one. I consistently see AI racers accelerate at crazy speeds and maintain speeds far higher than mine. I often look backwards when I'm on a straightaway and even characters that are supposed to have lower top speeds than my character will catch up to me with ease. It's always the ones that have been selected as rivals for the GP as you talked about above, but they aren't just driving at their normal speeds; they're clearly going noticeably faster.

Of course I realize that you could make the AI both perfect and cheating, but that doesn't mean they don't cheat at all. And I consistently see characters that should have lower top speeds than me driving faster than me without outside help.

I'll add the required "I do like the game" disclaimer so I don't get further suffocated by masses of mindless morons, but that doesn't mean I have to ignore clear flaws. And when a character that starts in an early position drives almost flawlessly and never gets hit except perhaps by a lucky swarm, while you get hit by items that you can't avoid (unless you're going to tell me to never be behind or in front of another racer while still following good lines) so you simply don't have any chance at all of catching up, it is a flaw. Enjoy that single sentence.


To everyone who keeps saying "but it's supposed to be challenging": There is a very big difference between challenging and cheating. In a racing game, it's challenging if your opponents are good but have the same capabilities as you do. If they beat you because they simply have impossible stats and gang up on you, it's cheating. If I didn't want any kind of challenge I wouldn't be playing on expert in the first place.
< >
Viser 115 av 185 kommentarer
Per side: 1530 50

Dato lagt ut: 15. mars 2013 kl. 7.00
Innlegg: 185