Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed
Mehbah Mar 15, 2013 @ 7:00am
Fix the AI - it's literally cheating.
When they aren't bullying you into submission by focusing all weapon attacks at you, they're literally cheating with their speeds. I keep getting outrun by low-speed characters like AiAi and Meemee, on straightaways, WHILE THEY ALSO GET ATTACKED. They outrun me while they're being hit by attacks, without boosts. That's even though I'm using console mod Eggman, who has a speed stat of 5 and a boost stat of 4. Every single other opponent still manages to drive faster than me, even when I'm at top speed. Oh, and they all have pretty much instant acceleration.

They also magically know exactly where I'm driving even if they can't see me, because I keep getting hit by ice and missiles fired by AI opponents much further ahead of me as I come out of curves. They completely ignore the four other AI opponents that are close to them, or even ahead of them, to fire their weapons extreme distances backwards in order to hit me in situations where I have no way of seeing the attacks in time to avoid. They have a drone in second place as we're approaching the finish line? They would rather fire it back a long distance at me instead of at the AI in the lead, just to ensure other AIs can pass me.

I've already beaten the world tour events and the six first grand prixes on expert, but I'm seriously tired of trying to win the rogue cup in mirror mode against AIs that outspeed me, accelerate better than me, have perfect handling and that have perfect weapon aim (with which they focus all attacks on me even when it's tactically unsound).
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PrimeSonic Mar 15, 2013 @ 7:12am 
You haven't said anything that hasn't been said several times over by now.

Yes, the AI racers follow different rules than players.
Yes, they work together to try to keep you from winning.
Yes, you are not on a level playing field with them.

But all this is to truly challenge and test the player. If you can beat the S-Class AI, you can stomp most other players. It will not be changed. You just need to learn how to beat them.

That's what Expert mode means. You will be tested for true mastery of the game and will be challenged with all odds stacked against you. If you can beat that (as many of us already have) then you can then call yourself Expert.

Until then, don't give up. Keep trying. Learn every last little thing to advance your position in the race. Use every tactic you can muster. And when you've honed your reflexes, your knowledge of the track, and your combat tactics and precision, then you will be a force to truly be reckoned with online.
2Ѡ7excalibur2Ѡ7 Mar 15, 2013 @ 7:26am 
@Mehbah

Isn't that kinda the point of S-class? To be seriously difficult and challenge whatever the player's got? :y

Plus they're AI's. If you're to nerf them for S-class, then there'd be no point of having an S-class difficulty in the first place. Also, I don't think there's any other way to make an AI much MUCH more challenging to race against other than aggressive rubberbanding and super-accurate weapon shots. :u
Djawed Mar 15, 2013 @ 7:29am 
Yeah its about winning "the game". Not how realistic things are and look while you win the game. Take in mind this isnt a race simulator but simply a fantastical fun racing game
PrimeSonic Mar 15, 2013 @ 7:35am 
Oh, and another thing.
In the first game, even on the highest difficulty, once you pulled up ahead, the AI racers would have no chance to catch up to you. The offline game got boring quickly cause I could beat those races while half-asleep.

Now, the S-Class AI make you fight the whole way. It's a lot more interesting when you're on the last lap and you still have to battle it out to win.

The A-Rank AIs are too easy now. I can usually pull away far enough that by the 3rd lap they are so far away as to be irrelevant. But the S-Class AIs. Now that's a test of mastery.
Processor Mar 15, 2013 @ 7:43am 
It seems you can be the best player in the world at this game and still lose to the AI on expert. It really doesn't matter how good you get at it, the AI will beat you from time to time due to random chaos. I'm perfectly okay with this. It means the game will always be challenging to some extent. An online match on the other hand... now that's where things get really crazy (and really fun).
VestedGamr Mar 15, 2013 @ 7:45am 
I agree with you that S-Class is a bit too hard for a kart racing game (it's just right for a Danmaku Bullethell, though XD). Still, it's not impossible.

Try Metal Sonic or Shadow with Acceleration if you're having trouble with getting hit, or Vyse or Sonic with Speed if it's the AI's speed that's the main problem (the latter is how I finally got enough stars to unlock Reala and AGES). Ultimately, it takes practice.

You should also check out the guides section.

Originally posted by 2007excalibur2007 {MOBILE}:
Also, I don't think there's any other way to make an AI much MUCH more challenging to race against other than aggressive rubberbanding and super-accurate weapon shots. :u

Make them take better lines on higher difficulties? Have them make the most out of their items (I'm pretty sure there's some sort of logic behind having blowfish on the outside of a turn, but I'm not seeing it)? Program them to attempt risk boosts on Normal and above? There's a lot of things that can be done, it's just that it takes less time and effort to give the AI unfair advantages to cover their weaknesses than it does to actually make the AI good at the game. If SUMO didn't have to deal with executive meddling, I'm sure they would have done a lot more with the AI.
Commando Entertainment Mar 15, 2013 @ 8:05am 
IMO defeating terribly rubberbandy AI isn't as much a test of mastery as it is a test of patience, but that's how most racing games against AI controlled racers work. It is very frustrating and not at all rewarding when you finally beat them, but complaining won't work. The entire genre would need fixing, not just this one game... and I imagine there are good reasons for not creating an AI that just kicks ♥♥♥ with the same tools available as you and instead resorting to this. Maybe it's just impossible, and any average player could just easily pull ahead, who knows.

It's a shame, because I think this is pretty boring, but hey. You can see that people generally don't seem to mind, and nobody ever listens to minorities in those circlejerky game communities.
FunkyFinzy Mar 15, 2013 @ 8:05am 
I find the expert AI to be very easy to beat in a standard race, if it didn't have those advantages there'd be no point to even having such a difficulty. I like it the way it is, actually I would even like a difficulty level higher than expert. :P

I don't feel that they cheat much either, if I drive and boost flawlessly at top speed throughout the track, it's fairly easy to make a long gap between your position and theirs (and there is no rubberbanding, so once you make that distance in the 2nd lap or so, it can only grow - I have never experienced rubberbanding myself in this game).

Also, if the AI "weapon spam" annoys you, just try multiplayer matchmaking and say that again...I find the AI much more friendly to play with than humans. They also don't have a 50% chance of knocking you miles away off the track everytime you collide with them.
Djawed Mar 15, 2013 @ 8:11am 
Originally posted by Processor:
It seems you can be the best player in the world at this game and still lose to the AI on expert. It really doesn't matter how good you get at it, the AI will beat you from time to time due to random chaos. I'm perfectly okay with this. It means the game will always be challenging to some extent. An online match on the other hand... now that's where things get really crazy (and really fun).
No that's not true. Believe me when I say, up when you surpass a certain point of "skill" or whatever ya wanna call it, even the expert AI becomes a breeze. It depends on the person. I think expert is perfect as a mode but i've seen some guys actually ask for even harsher difficulty mode.

The way I see expert is, the mode you wanna do once you master the mechanics, and after that, expert makes you a pro
PrimeSonic Mar 15, 2013 @ 9:18am 
Originally posted by ミノレバのMEAT:
...
I'm still trying to understand this post.

Let's try to break it down.

Yes, it is a matter of mastery because there is no point in time where you eventually beat the AI. Your skill must grow for that to happen. Some people reach that point at different times. I heard of people who were beating the S-Class AI after only a few hours. It took me a while longer than that.

Yes, you correctly inferred that programming AI that races like a skilled human is impossible. It cannot be done. So they add a little compensation to make the AI challenge the player. It's not meant to be exactly like a race with other people. It's meant to be its own thing. Treat it as such.

Now, what exactly do you find boring? You seem to be in favor of dumbing down the AI. Does that mean that you lose against them so often you find the game boring?
Do you find this conversation boring? Do you find it boring that these complaints have been said already in the past with confirmation from the developers that things are like this for a reason and they won't be changed?
I really don't know what you're talking about as far as being bored.

Also, petty insults do nothing to add to your credibility or chances of people listening to you.
If no one is listening to these "demands" it's because they are ill-founded and show a player who probably picked the wrong game.
If I went to a Starcraft forum and said to the developers
"Hey, we need to start with ten times as much ore in the single player maps"
do you think anyone would listen to me?

Now, we can have the discussion on the difficult AI all over again. Seems we're already on that. But whatever you bring to the discussion, especially the OP, remember that the game was playtested and balanced to fit the level of challenge the developers were going for.
There is a modest level of frustration that is expected, but it's not supposed to be so much as to get you to give up.
So ask yourself: are you just venting frustration and still trying, or are you actually unable to keep inching forward towards completing the game in full?
Processor Mar 15, 2013 @ 10:04am 
Originally posted by Djawed:
Originally posted by Processor:
It seems you can be the best player in the world at this game and still lose to the AI on expert. It really doesn't matter how good you get at it, the AI will beat you from time to time due to random chaos. I'm perfectly okay with this. It means the game will always be challenging to some extent. An online match on the other hand... now that's where things get really crazy (and really fun).
No that's not true. Believe me when I say, up when you surpass a certain point of "skill" or whatever ya wanna call it, even the expert AI becomes a breeze. It depends on the person. I think expert is perfect as a mode but i've seen some guys actually ask for even harsher difficulty mode.

The way I see expert is, the mode you wanna do once you master the mechanics, and after that, expert makes you a pro

I don't think you entirely understood what I was saying. I guarantee you if you choose Single Race, then choose Expert on the very first track and keep retrying it... you will eventually lose. Everyone likes to boast that they've "mastered" a game but you can't honestly sit here and try to convince everyone that you can keep playing on expert and always get 1st place every single time. You may get 1st place a majority of the time but everyone is prone to losing on expert mode eventually. I understand some characters with certain mods make certain races easier but it's like they say... you can't win'em all.
[DFS] Green Giant Mar 15, 2013 @ 10:22am 
Originally posted by Processor:
You may get 1st place a majority of the time but everyone is prone to losing on expert mode eventually. I understand some characters with certain mods make certain races easier but it's like they say... you can't win'em all.
Of course, this is a kart racing game after all. Playing Boost Race with Expert bots is one thing, but playing with items can grant bad luck.
S0L  [developer] Mar 15, 2013 @ 11:07am 
So an interesting discussion :)

Here is the one interesting fact about the AI... We have to dumb it down. We actually make it artificially stupid...

Why?

1. They'd hit you perfectly with every shot. They know exactly when to fire to hit perfectly with every weapon.

2. They can perfectly drift every corner (and chain drifts), stunt perfectly everywhere a stunt is possible, transform boost every gate where it's allowed and risk boost off every single risk boostable object in the game (they see the world as collision, not pretty graphics!)

3. They wouldn't be limited by each other actions. You know as a player how annoying it is to be hit multiple times in a row. We actually limit that, we could let them really go to town on you.

4. We could let them all run full speed. We do pick a few and let them be the front runners in a given race, the ones who nip at your heels all the way through a GP, the rest are slowed, we could let them all run full speed...

5. We could make it their sole purpose in life to take out the player and work together as a team, instead we tell them to randomly pick targets or play nice with each other in the purposes of making an interesting race.

We actually don't really rubber band them. In some occasions we allow them to have increased engine power if they are trailing significantly, but they're not allowed to do it near to the player.

When you get to Expert AI, we actually are letting the AI be themselves more, pray mere human mortals, we don't remove their 'Three law' Asimov limitations and let them loose on you for real :)

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S0L
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PrimeSonic Mar 15, 2013 @ 11:37am 
Originally posted by S0L:
So an interesting discussion :)

Here is the one interesting fact about the AI... We have to dumb it down. We actually make it artificially stupid...

Why?

1. They'd hit you perfectly with every shot. They know exactly when to fire to hit perfectly with every weapon.

2. They can perfectly drift every corner (and chain drifts), stunt perfectly everywhere a stunt is possible, transform boost every gate where it's allowed and risk boost off every single risk boostable object in the game (they see the world as collision, not pretty graphics!)

3. They wouldn't be limited by each other actions. You know as a player how annoying it is to be hit multiple times in a row. We actually limit that, we could let them really go to town on you.

4. We could let them all run full speed. We do pick a few and let them be the front runners in a given race, the ones who nip at your heels all the way through a GP, the rest are slowed, we could let them all run full speed...

5. We could make it their sole purpose in life to take out the player and work together as a team, instead we tell them to randomly pick targets or play nice with each other in the purposes of making an interesting race.

We actually don't really rubber band them. In some occasions we allow them to have increased engine power if they are trailing significantly, but they're not allowed to do it near to the player.

When you get to Expert AI, we actually are letting the AI be themselves more, prey mere human mortals, we don't remove their 'Three law' Asimov limitations and let them loose on you for real :)

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S0L
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Quoting for epic comment.
Ōkami Mar 15, 2013 @ 12:38pm 
Don't see why the fuss, it's been like that on Mario Kart for ages, every since the very first one on the SNES.

From easy to hard, normal increasingly difficulty opponent behavior.
Expert mode, they obviously "cheat" on you, and you still found a way to win it all.

It's a matter of actually wanting to play a good challenging game, what's wrong with humans these days, we no longer want to outsmart a machine.

-.-

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