Miraglyth Sep 21, 2013 @ 9:56am
Margin for error [Video]
Try allowing for it? Levels like Tight Fit have a "dev" time that's almost frame-perfect.

Knowing movement timing goes into replays, it really wouldn't surprise me if they were used to generate unrealistic "dev" times. I'm convinced that if the dev really spent that much time manually recording runs, they would have picked up on various control quirks and shortcuts that went unnoticed.

In short, I challenge kpulv to watch the following video through and say it was an enjoying watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHDl_PGRhdg

Edit: Reading this through the following day, I realise it sounds a bit whiny. But I stand by the difficulty I have in believing certain dev runs are sensible, let alone genuine. They've written a considerate-sounding piece about platforming ledge forgiveness[www.kpulv.com], but their stated purpose of helping players is betrayed when abusing this mechanic is required to compete with many dev times.

More to the point, if they care about platforming forgiveness and have played the game extensively enough to record some incredible times, how come they've completely failed to notice that Momma Flinger's body can be wholly above a ledge she's jumping up to yet still not manage to reach it?

Edit again: This is becoming more obvious the further I progress... levels like The Flow and Chip Away - which involve getting a pivotal moment frame-perfect at the very end - are interspersed with levels like Elevator where there's the most obvious shortcut ever (instead of doing the puzzle, just... jump up and grab the baby...) to finish a 31-second dev time level in just 9.

I'm going back to being whiny here, but dev times have been made pivotal to progression. How come some of them are mechanic-abusing chores to pip the ninja by milliseconds while others are a joke? Wouldn't it have made more sense to make them all reasonably tough but beatable? Despite my complaints I'm growing fond of this game's playability, but this aspect of it, unfortunately central to playing it, really makes it hard to call it great.

Edit again again: I swear, if I wasn't so far into this game... The extreme mismatch of difficulty is the most obvious it's ever been with levels 96 (Dramatic Toss) and 97 (Circular), the former being another pathetically easy rainbow flower and the latter being the most unbelievably demanding task I can imagine with button timing followed by ascending jumps (always tough when the sprite is misleading, see above) finished with a baby-grabbing jump into a narrow gap against a dev time that has one of the smallest margins for error in the game. There's no way this forcibly important part of the game was playtested. None.
Last edited by Miraglyth; Sep 24, 2013 @ 2:35pm
Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
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Gareth Nov 30, 2013 @ 4:24pm 
I completely agree with this post. I love this game but the dev times are testing my patience. I wouldn't be surprised if the "dev" is a bot.
ballom Dec 2, 2013 @ 4:21am 
Q_Q dis gam iz to ard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fj7b4bIxFU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZoynDBZJqA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg0sFZ4lE9M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WsKQbAXSI
(not uploaded :chips away 20:48 )

first i like the way the eev time are , it's liek the game is:
_just finish the game: i'm a casual play
_golden flower time: i like when this is not easy
_secret level : i fell the pain, more pain please
_dev time: i'm a damn hardcore gamer

So while this look like a casual game, everybody find his the difficulty he want, the casual will just finish the game, while hardcore will enoy beat records


also about dev time, it's more bug me there is wayyy too easy dev time, rather than extra hard.
I'd rather see the 10 platinium times (circular, uppercut,outrageous...) as mega challenge, rather than a lack of difficulty balance (exept mad up, this one really made you mad, only les 0.09 sec than the dev, and i had one of the best time)


about the variation between level, i think this is for 2 reason:
_make really hard dev time, but made few easy so the player don't give up "cauz dev tim ar impocibl! no way wi kan do zis!"
_the dev didn't alway took the faster path, so you can search for it, like in speedrunning (if this is unvolunter from the dev i'll be sad :( , cause i enjoy the idea of a game encouraging speedrunning )


also the dev seem to didn't know some technique, like the cellign boost (despite using tunnel boost) or double grab boost and choose to didn't use some (before level 110 he never use parade, while it create some good path



and one last time, he said some dev time are his 2nd best time, not 1st


cordially, ballom a 22:15:33 on 120 level player
Last edited by ballom; Dec 2, 2013 @ 6:18am
Gareth Dec 2, 2013 @ 9:31am 
Can someone please translate the above post?
ballom Dec 2, 2013 @ 9:53am 
Originally posted by Villi:
Can someone please translate the above post?
you clearly understand my post despite the bad grammar, didn't need this king of free taunt here.
Gareth Dec 2, 2013 @ 10:05am 
Ok, lets just stop right here. I'm not getting sucked into another internet argument.
Miraglyth Dec 5, 2013 @ 12:09pm 
Deliberate use of bad grammar to mock a complainant only sticks when the complaint itself demonstrated some, or was poorly-founded.

At least two of the levels you've selected there would be counter-examples to issues I've explained. Dinobaus and The Hunted are neither pointlessly easy nor frustrating to do well on. Meanwhile I don't understand the fame Uppercut has got, there are many levels that are far more perfection-demanding and it doesn't have infuriating waiting.

Having finished the game, I can't really take that difficulty chart seriously. It is easier to not only beat but get a rainbow flower on most of the bonus levels, than it is to rainbow flower many of the levels as required to unlock them.

And less annoying. I still can't believe levels where you have to wait for flowers to shoot out many destructible rocks before the race part of the level starts. Every single attempt.
ballom Dec 5, 2013 @ 1:53pm 
"At least two of the levels you've selected there would be counter-examples to issues I've explained. Dinobaus and The Hunted are neither pointlessly easy nor frustrating to do well on."
just cause times i performed on those 2 are really over others time (for dinobauss, i watched the first time replay, it's either huge bug abuse or cheat) for show how big can be the margin

" I don't understand the fame Uppercut has got, there are many levels that are far more perfection-demanding and it doesn't have infuriating waiting."
1: sure, you can do way better than the dev time, but just look touchwoo/thechaosbadger/ballom time on other level and you see you can apply this point to most levels
2: this is the earlier hard time, c'mon it's only lvl 44 on 120 and it's one of the hardest
3: this level had a crazy dev path, it's totally unexpected and need lot of tricky jump( especially the double grab at end, i hate double grab )
4: differents times (blue flower, golden, rainbow) had differents path, and there is even other alternativ path, on a level design point this level is very interresting :D

"And less annoying. I still can't believe levels where you have to wait for flowers to shoot out many destructible rocks before the race part of the level starts. Every single attempt."
aKa auto sidescrolling on other game ^^ (i remember a mario TAS where he does TON OF random crazy ♥♥♥♥ cause he was in an veryyyyy long autoscrollign level )
But yeah pretty annoying , on this kind of level i like jump everywhere boingboingbingboing.


" It is easier to not only beat but get a rainbow flower on most of the bonus levels, than it is to rainbow flower many of the levels as required to unlock them."
rainbow flower on outrageous ....hopefuly you haven't to be as frame perfect as mad up... >_<
Last edited by ballom; Dec 6, 2013 @ 2:18am
Miraglyth Dec 7, 2013 @ 10:40am 
Originally posted by ballom:
just cause times i performed on those 2 are really over others time
Irrelevant. I don't care about your time or anyone else's. My complaint was entirely about how some rainbow flower times are (a) absurdly perfectionist and (b) require long periods of waiting. Juxtaposed by other times which are pointlessly simple. Considering they're required for progress it just doesn't feel right.

Originally posted by ballom:
aKa auto sidescrolling on other game ^^ But yeah pretty annoying
Exactly, and nobody likes auto scrolling levels unless they're exceptionally well-designed or played by ProtonJon.

Originally posted by ballom:
rainbow flower on outrageous ....hopefuly you haven't to be as frame perfect as mad up... >_<
In my defence I did say most!
Last edited by Miraglyth; Dec 7, 2013 @ 10:41am
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