Sanctum 2 > General Discussions > Topic Details
Shade Dec 6, 2013 @ 3:53pm
Diagonal lines?
So I LOVED the 1st Sanctum, and I'm trying hard to give this one a fighting chance. But I seem to running up against a rather strange dilemma.... Diagonal lines. If anyone who played the 1st one can help me out here and answer a few questions it would help quite a bit.

A key maze segment in the 1st game was making the mobs turn corners. This slowed them down, bunched them up, and was a staple of any good maze. This game however builds diagonal walls.... leaving me extremely confused. Are corners useless/nonexistant now? Are diagonal mazes a waste of space? Do they even slow anything down? Should all mazes now just be straight lines and squared turns? Any insight would be nice.

And just as a side note... does the music get any better? I feel like I'm falling asleep durring the build phases with the quiet drums in the background. I need my awesome techno fix, to the point that I've been tempted to play the 1st Sanctum's soundtrack instead.
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@ockeffs  [developer] Dec 6, 2013 @ 4:10pm 
Hello!
The diagonal walls are merely cosmetic, only there to make it easier to see that the tower bases actually block the path "corner-to-corner".

I dont know about the music, such things are always subjective. You can listen to the full soundtrack over at our bandcamp to decide whether you like it or not. http://coffeestainstudios.bandcamp.com/
Shade Dec 6, 2013 @ 5:05pm 
Originally posted by @ockeffs:
Hello!
The diagonal walls are merely cosmetic, only there to make it easier to see that the tower bases actually block the path "corner-to-corner".

I dont know about the music, such things are always subjective. You can listen to the full soundtrack over at our bandcamp to decide whether you like it or not. http://coffeestainstudios.bandcamp.com/

Wow a Dev... Ok then: Do mobs turn corners? Or do they simply see this ( ¯|_ ) as ( \ )? Again in the 1st game making the mobs turn corners was a big deal, but in this one it seems like they see ¯|_ as a straight diagonal line. This is the main question I need an answer to.
Last edited by Shade; Dec 7, 2013 @ 12:12am
Shade Dec 7, 2013 @ 12:23am 
As for the side note about music: The build phase music in all of the Rocky Fields levels put me to sleep. I loved ALL of the 1st Sanctum's music, each map having a different build phase track, and 2-3 wave phase tracks. They cycled after the first few maps, but the next map was always different music than the last. So far in Sanctum 2 all the build phase music is shared within the level set, so for 3-5 maps you're stuck with the same track on repeat and if it's not to your liking.... while planning out my mazes on the last few maps in the Rocky Fields I put on the Sanctum 1 soundtrack. I hope the next level set has a better build phase track. /end side note on music.
@ockeffs  [developer] Dec 7, 2013 @ 4:48am 
Originally posted by Shade:
Wow a Dev... Ok then: Do mobs turn corners? Or do they simply see this ( ¯|_ ) as ( \ )? Again in the 1st game making the mobs turn corners was a big deal, but in this one it seems like they see ¯|_ as a straight diagonal line. This is the main question I need an answer to.
The path-finding works a little bit differently. It's way more complex in Sanctum 2.

In Sanctum 1 they would move from grid square to grid square and choose a random position within that grid square. This is what caused the behaviour you were describing.

In Sanctum 2 it's more complex and "programmer-y". Enemies will try not to ant-line, like in sanctum 1, where they just walk in a big line. They do split up some times. So for example in Sanctum 1 you could build a maze that split up into two paths and all enemies would just walk the same way. In Sanctum 2 they will split up and walk both ways. So while they do split up I think they do try to move as straight as possible.

Hope my confused explanation helped :P
Floyd! Dec 7, 2013 @ 7:23am 
I think the corners could never be a waste of space, since they are the best spots for close-range towers, such as ACP's and Lightning Towers; the lumes will obviously spend much more time around those tower bases, regardless of whether they walk in a straight line or not. :)
Shade Dec 7, 2013 @ 8:51am 
Originally posted by Floyd!:
I think the corners could never be a waste of space, since they are the best spots for close-range towers, such as ACP's and Lightning Towers; the lumes will obviously spend much more time around those tower bases, regardless of whether they walk in a straight line or not. :)
Looks like I'm still not getting my question through.... even to a player >.<

Mob pathing------------------------------Blocks
o¯|_oooooooooo \ oooooo|____|___oooooo|____|___
ooo¯|_ooooooooo \ ooooooooo|ooo¯|oooooooo¯|ooo¯|
ooooo¯|_oooooooo \ oooooooo|____|___oooooo|____|___
ooooooo¯|_ooooooo \ oooooooooo¯|ooo¯|oooooooo¯|ooo¯|
ooooooooo¯|_oooooo \ oooooooooo|____|___oooooo|____|

Made even bigger to get my point accross. Ok lets try this again: In Sanctum 1 placing blocks/bases in a diagonal pattern next to other blocks in a diagonal pattern would create a series of corners, which slowed the mobs, made them group, etc. Hence it was always a good idea to add such patterns into your maze. However in Sanctum 2 making the exact same pattern seems to translate into a straight away for mobs. [Example- A charger in the 1st game would be slowed due to the series of turns. A rhino in the 2nd game (If the graph is correct) picks up massive speed in the same exact maze due to diagonal straightaway] Do mobs turn corners? Or are all diagonal maze designs a waste of space? Meaning all effective mazes will just be |_|¯| paths with varying lengths.
Last edited by Shade; Dec 8, 2013 @ 12:21am
Shade Dec 7, 2013 @ 9:05am 
Originally posted by @ockeffs:
The path-finding works a little bit differently. It's way more complex in Sanctum 2.

In Sanctum 1 they would move from grid square to grid square and choose a random position within that grid square. This is what caused the behaviour you were describing.

In Sanctum 2 it's more complex and "programmer-y". Enemies will try not to ant-line, like in sanctum 1, where they just walk in a big line. They do split up some times. So for example in Sanctum 1 you could build a maze that split up into two paths and all enemies would just walk the same way. In Sanctum 2 they will split up and walk both ways. So while they do split up I think they do try to move as straight as possible.

Hope my confused explanation helped :P

Hmm, this didn't answer my question at all, but it did give me some new and very usefull information! I had no idea that I could split mobs up. I'm just so used to Sanctum 1's "most direct route" pathing that I never even thought of trying it in the 2nd one. Thank you for this bit of info! And thank you for trying to anwser my question, I hope my last post made what I've been asking more clear and easy to understand. >.< Hard to talk about maze patterns without grid pictures.
Floyd! Dec 7, 2013 @ 9:28am 
Sorry, seems like I didn't get it the first time!
I thought you talked about the most optimised corner block placements. I guess @ockeffs gave you a proper answer. Since there's no real square by square conception for the ennemies' paths, it's hard to think diagonals take longer to go through than straight lines. I still do it as an habit though, or even aesthetically.
Last edited by Floyd!; Dec 7, 2013 @ 9:30am
ShaDoWLaZeR Dec 7, 2013 @ 9:41am 
If you want a map with sanctum 1's music try the beta of DLC 4 :).
Misaky Dec 7, 2013 @ 5:20pm 
i dont know about sanctum 1, but in every TD, diagonals always help make the enemies walk longer compared to horizontal + vertical lines (its simple math using the Pythagorean Theorem). And in this one obviously will be the same, if the map lets you do it ofc.
akolesar Dec 7, 2013 @ 10:04pm 
I love diagonal lines
Shade Dec 8, 2013 @ 12:19am 
Originally posted by Misaky:
i dont know about sanctum 1, but in every TD, diagonals always help make the enemies walk longer compared to horizontal + vertical lines (its simple math using the Pythagorean Theorem). And in this one obviously will be the same, if the map lets you do it ofc.
Regarding your mathmatics, yes in principle this is true. However given the smaller build areas and AI behavor it is always better to make a series of turns than a straight line of any length, which is why I made this thread. I actually hate tower defense games other than Sanctum. Something about not being able to to do anything if your maze starts to fail, and why watch it work when you might as well just skip and look at a page of statistics. But my game preferances and mathmatics aside, this thread is about Ai pathing and block mechanics in Sanctum 2 as compared to Sanctum 1.
Unicarn Dec 9, 2013 @ 5:53pm 
While diagonal lines can be useful in certain circumstances, they don't cause them to turn like you're describing.
fjtheman2005 Dec 9, 2013 @ 7:53pm 
To be honest, Sanctum 2 is a good bit more realistic than the first. This presents more challenge. I understand what you're talking about, but I've come to terms with it my self.
Shade Dec 9, 2013 @ 10:16pm 
Originally posted by fjtheman2005:
To be honest, Sanctum 2 is a good bit more realistic than the first. This presents more challenge. I understand what you're talking about, but I've come to terms with it my self.

Having just "beat" the game today, I can say that this aspect of the Ai pathing meant a rather drastic change in maze designs from the 1st game. Yes, it is much more realistic, (which I like don't get me wrong) but it seems to greatly constrict the number/types of maze pattens that are effective.

All in all I like the game, I think it stands on it's own. However I think I enjoyed the 1st game much more due to the level of freedom and number/depth of stratagy(ies) available. But I'll be happily throwing money at the screen in hopes that we'll see Sanctum 3 in the near future... With hopefully some more options.
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Date Posted: Dec 6, 2013 @ 3:53pm
Posts: 15