*Spoilers* The jedi order

[Alma]

Is it lightsided or not? In this game, it seems that both the sith and the jedi order are the bad guys, the sith by wanting to destroy the galaxy (I do not include Kreia, she is something else) and the jedi order are morally grey, they wanted to kill the exile, even tough he helped both the republic and it's citizens, din't fall on the dark side (This is assuming you are a light-sided character) even when everybody else was following the example of revan and malak. Yet they wanted to kill him/her because they saw the exile as a wound in the force, and no other ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ reason, even if you were always good through the game.

Also, it took the jedi order to fall just so they could see that the whole doctrine of no love was flawed, and that is even after Revan proved it by redeeming bastila (assuming the canon version of events)

[Dr. McWeazel]

That's kinda the point, actually. The game paints it so that the only person who can be absolutely moral in everything he/she does is you, and even that much is debatable when you take his/her actions during the Mandalorian Wars into consideration- notably, giving the order to fire the Mass Shadow Generator and the subsequent destruction of Malachor V and most of the Mandalorian fleet, which nearly cast the Mandalorians into extinction. (Is that even a spoiler?) When you take that into account, the Jedi Order's decision to cast you out makes much more sense, especially when paired with your continued existence being an affront to the Force itself.

It's also worth noting that the Jedi, despite having shoved their collective head up their own ass, are still leagues better than the Sith, though they themselves are not totally evil if Kreia, Visas, and Atton's cooperation with your actions regardless of alignment is anything to go by. It seems many of them were simply pressed into being evil, rather than choosing to do be evil, and while Kreia's end goal seems to be evil at first, it can be construed as attempting to bring about freedom from the Force's will and from the endless cycle of the Light Side pushing the Dark Side to the brink and then being pushed back to near destruction, and is thusly good (assuming that killing the Force wouldn't kill all life right along with it).

There is a lot more to any one person or group's decisions than there seems to be at first glance in this game, as opposed to most of the rest of the Star Wars EU.

[Alma]

How would they know about Atton, Visas or Kreia?
It is shown that they tought that Kreia was dead, as shown by their surprise.
Visas and Atton's cooperation can be hidden if you use other team-members.

I doubt that what the exile did was inmoral, if i remember correctly, he/she is surprised and did not expect what happened (destroying malachor V, and any troops there) and even then, i cannot think of anything that Bao-Dur did that was inmoral (apart from his hate to mandalorians)

What i cannot understand is why kill the exile, because he wasn't harming anyone (LS) Kevar and Zez-Kai Ell must have seen that you weren't running around being evil to anyone (and actually helping them) Altough i cannot remember if Vrook berated you if you helped the colonists or not.

[__-__-__]

The Jedi are the "good guys" in the purest sense of the term, they want what is best for everyone, however, at the time of KotOR 2, they have gone unquestioned and unquestioning for so long they are not capable of percieving what actually is best for everyone. The Jedi of KotOR 2 are well-intentioned but dogmatic, arrogant and close-minded.

It took them the loss of thier entire order before just one of them even entertained the notion that thier own teachings might actually be responsible for the staggering number of falls to the Dark Side in the Jedi Civil war.

[Alma]

It seems that i forgot about that jedi, who was the one who entertained that motion?

It seems that the jedi would be lawful good then, altough there is one thing i do not understood in the entire game since i played it the first time: Why did the jedi got a lot more stubborn when together? When you approach them one by one they seem to apologize to you (except Vrook)

[__-__-__]

Zez Kai El is the Jedi that starts to think that way.

It's been a little while since I've played so I'm not entirely sure but I will take a stab at it. They still didn't entirely understand you or what had happened to you, I think most of thier "apologies" were for judging the Exile as if the Exile were Revan. But they failed to understand that what the Exile became isn't inherintly dark and came up with the same solution they did the first time around. It's also possible they detected Kreia's hand in the events surrounding the Exile, and had hoped that by cutting you off from the force again they could stop what was happening, but they were far too late to be able to affect anything.

I generally find people are easier to deal with one-on-one, in groups people can sometimes allow thier better judgement to be overidden by those around them, maybe Obsidian was touching on that.

[Alma]

It has been time since i played the game, so i din't remember that :D

I tought that the council did not manage to cut the exile from the force, and now that i think of it, maybe Kreia's plan would not be so apocalyptic (because i remember that the council died because they were way too used to the force, and when she cut them from it, they died from the shock. Anyone not too used to it could have been alright)

[Shufflecat]

Kreia intervened before they cut the Exile off from the force, yes.

The first time they judged the exile, they didn't cut her/him off from the force either: he/she ( canonically she, apparently) was "blinded" by the shock of all the people at Malachor V dying simultaniously. Same thing that created Nihilus: the difference between the exile and Nhilus was basically down to how their minds refexively coped.

That's why the council was so scared of her and wanted to cut her off from the force at Dantooine: they were afraid she'd become another "black hole" in the force like Nihilus if she ever slipped up even a little. They weren't cutting her off as a moral punishment, but rather taking an extreme "better safe than sorry" opproach to what they saw as an unnaceptable risk.

Some of them had started to question their earlier judgement of her after the Mandalorian wars, but that wasn't the actual subject of the second "trial" at Dantooine. That trial was more about assessing the risk she might pose as a "wound in the force" than about guilt/innocence.

Though the issue does get muddied when they talk to her, as most of them still seemed to feel she was ultimately to blame for the whole thing to begin with, since she pulled the trigger on Malachor V. Once they started to believe her being a "wound in the force" was a huge scary risk, that probably overrode their doubts and made them think "See: if she hadn't disobeyed the Order at the very beginning, we wouldn't be facing this apocalyptic threat now, so we were right all along". Flawed logic since joining the war didn't have to lead to Malachor V, but even Jedi are flawed mortals, and blind overconfidence in their own judgements was their weakness, so it was kinda the path of least resistance for them psychologically.

[Shufflecat]

OT: I did find myself wondering why a simlar "wound" didn't happen to Vader at Alderan. Obviously because the OT was written waaaaaaaayyyy before KOTOR 2, of course, but what's the in-universe explanation?

[Dr. McWeazel]

Originally posted by The Cookie Monster:

How would they know about Atton, Visas or Kreia?

The Jedi? They didn't, but I didn't say they did. I said that the 3 of them represented that the Sith aren't inherently evil. I didn't say anything beyond that.

Originally posted by The Cookie Monster:

It is shown that they tought that Kreia was dead, as shown by their surprise.
Visas and Atton's cooperation can be hidden if you use other team-members.

Indeed, they were caught by surprise when Kreia showed up. However, they know that you've been influencing your party members in some way or another. Also, there are portions of the game where Atton has to be in your party or you can't proceed, most notably back on Paragus II.

Originally posted by The Cookie Monster:

I doubt that what the exile did was inmoral, if i remember correctly, he/she is surprised and did not expect what happened (destroying malachor V, and any troops there)

How would the Exile not have known what the Mass Shadow Generator did if s/he was the one that ordered it's activation to start with?

Originally posted by The Cookie Monster:

and even then, i cannot think of anything that Bao-Dur did that was inmoral (apart from his hate to mandalorians)

Well, yeah, that's kinda the point. Again, there's more to each character or group than is readily apparent. Bao-Dur's flaw and seed for the Dark Side to take route should you manage to draw him over to the Dark Side without alienating him is his unrelenting hatred of the Mandalorians and their actions just before and during the Mandalorian Wars .

Originally posted by The Cookie Monster:

What i cannot understand is why kill the exile, because he wasn't harming anyone (LS) Kevar and Zez-Kai Ell must have seen that you weren't running around being evil to anyone (and actually helping them) Altough i cannot remember if Vrook berated you if you helped the colonists or not.

They can't trust that you won't start doing what Darth Nihilus is doing if you realize the immense power you can garner by simply draining the world around you of life. Also, Vrook has a tendency to rail on people no matter what they do. That's almost all he ever did in the first game, and that was (remarkably) toned down in this game.

And didn't they mention that they didn't want to do that, but rather felt that it had to be done to ensure the safety of the Force (and, by extension, all things connected to it)?

Originally posted by Pepe_DeJefe:

OT: I did find myself wondering why a simlar "wound" didn't happen to Vader at Alderan. Obviously because the OT was written waaaaaaaayyyy before KOTOR 2, of course, but what's the in-universe explanation?

Vader may not have been as connected to the Force as the Exile (which is somewhat dubious), or the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator caused longer, more drawn out death of Malachor V rather than the instant obliteration that Alderaan suffered.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Pepe_DeJefe:

OT: I did find myself wondering why a simlar "wound" didn't happen to Vader at Alderan. Obviously because the OT was written waaaaaaaayyyy before KOTOR 2, of course, but what's the in-universe explanation?

Also Vader specifically didn't give the order to destroy Alderan. That alone may disconnect him enough to not be as effected, combined with all the armor/life support (since heavier armor restricts force powers, we could assume it reduces overall connection to force). Throughout the movies, you never really see Vader use the force at a large galatic or interstellear manner. Even to detect his own flesh and blood Luke, he need to be relatively close such as on a nearby spaceship.

My theory is largely being less effected due to allready being so severely force damaged. The scars from becoming Vader act as a sorta callous, so he doesn;t blister as easy.

[Alma]

I misunderstood what you meant with " though they themselves are not totally evil if Kreia, Visas, and Atton's cooperation with your actions regardless of alignment is anything to go by" Altough now i understand what you meant and i agree

"How would the Exile not have known what the Mass Shadow Generator did if s/he was the one that ordered it's activation to start with?" It seems i have to replay the game, i tought that the exile was surprised with the extent of what it did (altough it seems a bit extrange that he activated it even knowing what it would do at it's full extent, due to his attachment to his troops)

[travjon]

I always felt that the Exile knew exactly what he/she was doing with the mass shadow generator. He/she was ending the war in a way that made sure the Mandalorians wouldn't be a threat again. Yes, there were Republic casualties from the mass shadow generator, but it was a price the Exile was willing to make to end the war.

[Shufflecat]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Originally posted by Pepe_DeJefe:

OT: I did find myself wondering why a simlar "wound" didn't happen to Vader at Alderan. Obviously because the OT was written waaaaaaaayyyy before KOTOR 2, of course, but what's the in-universe explanation?

Also Vader specifically didn't give the order to destroy Alderan. That alone may disconnect him enough to not be as effected, combined with all the armor/life support (since heavier armor restricts force powers, we could assume it reduces overall connection to force). Throughout the movies, you never really see Vader use the force at a large galatic or interstellear manner. Even to detect his own flesh and blood Luke, he need to be relatively close such as on a nearby spaceship.

My theory is largely being less effected due to allready being so severely force damaged. The scars from becoming Vader act as a sorta callous, so he doesn;t blister as easy.

I don't think not being the one who gave the order would have made a difference, since it didn't for Nihilus.The armor thing IMO is more of a gameplay mechanic than an actual lore thing: it's just the standard "mages take a penalty for wearing armour" balancing rule you see in most fantasy RPGs.

The stuff about him being much less force sensative due to his injuries makes sense. IIRC it's a common fan interpretation that losing parts of his body made him weaker in the force (less flesh= less midichlorians, or somesuch), possibly to the point where Palpatine might've already been looking to replace him. Figure by the time of ANH he's not that stong anymore, just good at ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ what he's got like a laser to compensate.

Also possible I guess that there were just way more people at Malachor V than there were on Alderan. Three factions had almost their entire forces massed there for the engagement, and IIRC we're never told how populated the planet itself was.

[Shufflecat]

Originally posted by travjon:

I always felt that the Exile knew exactly what he/she was doing with the mass shadow generator. He/she was ending the war in a way that made sure the Mandalorians wouldn't be a threat again. Yes, there were Republic casualties from the mass shadow generator, but it was a price the Exile was willing to make to end the war.

That's the impression I got as well. She didn't know it would cause a wound in the force, but she knew how many it would kill, including collateral damage, and believed that to be acceptable or necessary to end the war.

[Alma]

Originally posted by Pepe_DeJefe:

The stuff about him being much less force sensative due to his injuries makes sense. IIRC it's a common fan interpretation that losing parts of his body made him weaker in the force (less flesh= less midichlorians, or somesuch), possibly to the point where Palpatine might've already been looking to replace him. Figure by the time of ANH he's not that stong anymore, just good at ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ what he's got like a laser to compensate.

Vader was also weaker in another sense, due to his machine part, he could not use force lightning or anything like that, and using it to damage vader would weaken him severily, that is why the emperor managed to kill vader too in ROTJ.