DOOM 3: BFG Edition > Discussões Gerais > Detalhes do Tópico
Phantomizer 11 Ago, 2013 às 15:58
Time to Face The Truth Of Id Software...
Okay, hopefully if you don't mind reading, then you might wanna get comfortable for this is gonna be mouthful. I always thought of Id Software as a legendary company. There games back then were huge hits that revolutionized the FPS genre. Wolfenstein introduced players into FPS, DooM pretty much took over, and Quake was just the final cherry on their sweet ice cream of awesome games. Unfortunately....after DooM 3, Id Software is now falling, and falling hard into a life of obscurity. Sure, many of Id's games were made by third-party companies, but remeber, Id software still played a huge roles in most of their third-party games as well in the dev phase.

You are probably wondering what I am talking about, right? Well, to put it short and simple: Id Software is dying and there games aren't really anything new. Now, many will disagree since everybody seems to hate modern FPS games these days but here is something I've noticed, Most people complain about how FPS games are now modern and too lame now. Question, what games come to mind when you think of this? Halo? COD? Battlefield? Medal of Honor? That is pretty much the games people focus on, which really iritates me. There are many GOOD FPS games out there that most people just judge based off a few. Here are a few: Serious Sam, Crysis, Left 4 Dead, Tribes, Borderlands, Guns of Icarus, Counter-Strike, Blacklight, Far Cry, I can go on and on. Yes, some of these are military shooters, but not bland, cookie-cutter ones, but, rather unique ones that people seem to single out all because of the basic ones that EVERYBODY knows which isn't fair (CS might be a little bit of an exception here...), which brings us to Id Software games, so many of you say these games are what stand out from all of those when really, these are not really ground-breaking in anyway. Sure, Id's games back then were, but now, when they release new ones, so many people freak out saying stuff like "Omg this is what shooters are about" or "better than any modern FPS games out there" and stuff like that. Really, and all honesty, there games these days are nothing I even seem to excite about. Sure, Modern FPS games kind of are lacking in variety at the moment, but still, there are tons of FPS games that you guys probably never even given a try. Many formulate opinions based off a few. And many of these games are fun. Not all military shooters suck (Yes, this is coming from a modern, and retro gamer) but most of you degrade them as another simple COD knock-off. Ever played Arma?

There games are simple: Shoot whatever moves and progress, sure this is fun...but only for awhile. Quake 4 I enjoyed but kinda lost interest into it towards the end, also, Return to Castle Wolfenstein was the same way (Yes, I understand that these were third party games as well, but still, Id employees did play a part in the development of these, same thing with Enemy Territory). I think ID relies too much on their past gameplay to help them in their success. As a user told me once for I actually made a forum post and defended Id's games, but, TBH, in that one I was being fairly generous. I said stuff like "Quake 4 was amazing in everyway" when what I really wanted to say "It was a little bit bland and repetitive at some points". Anyway, what the user told me was their graphics are advancing while their gameplay is still stuck in the 90's. And that, is a true fact. It's like a bag of chips, the flavor is only good for so long before you finally put the bag away for the flavor now lacks off, and that is how Id's games are becoming, a bag of stale chips.

Rage was their first step towards a new direction, and while it had sweet gunplay and smart AI, everything else fell flat, the navigation in the cities were frustrating for a lack of it, The story made almost no sense what-so-ever, and while the gunplay was sweet, it only lasted so long. Seriously, most gun fights were like 6 minutes before it stopped and you found a convient way back to the exit of each level. Quake 4 was just another version of Doom 3 really, but with Quake stuff in it, and nothing new here, shoot whatever moves and go.

When I heard DooM 3 BFG edition was coming out, I was excited but once I bought it, I was actually somewhat disappointed. The Lost Missions were OKAY, but I felt there were better levels in the campaign itself. And I already played RoE so nothing new here, and I think that they thought if they included the original Doom 1 and 2 that sales would increase. They even went as far as in the game description by saying "As a special bonus, Doom BFG Edition will also include the original Doom and Doom II games, making it the definitive collection of the revolutionary games developed by the studio that pioneered the first-person shooter genre". Look at how much of a big deal they made a game that you probably played 5 million times already. We get it, Doom was awesome, but they rely to much on that success and the formula of it to make new games, this is why their games lack the impact they did back then.

It seems that the only original founding father of Id software, John Carmack, seems to only focus on hardware these days, and while that is not a problem, it is just that this is making his games kinda, in a way, fail.

Their last hope is DooM 4 (TBH) and the new Wolfenstein game coming out, and if that fails, the only ground the company has left to stand on is Quakecon. Sure, some games were released like Enemy Territory which I found fun, but that is about it. It seems after DooM 3 came out, that the company just started to lose their charm, and yes, I do know ET was a third party game as well.

I understand this post is just asking for a flame war, but if you disagree, please act maturely about it, please no "YOU DUMB ♥♥♥♥♥♥, THESE GAMES ARE AWESOME" and stuff like that. Another point of all of this is that the FPS genre today doesn't suck, you guys just alienate EVERY single FPS game out their these days all because of a few that suck. I've played tons of unique FPS games that aren't like COD.

Id Software is a company that is simply dying and they are a far away from reaching the light at the end of the ♥♥♥♥ tunnel. Id really needs some new ideas fast and I hope when it comes to Doom 4, they will implement new things (No, not like regen health or ADS) that are original and unique that also boost the gameplay.

Lastly, for my proof on all of this, notice how most of Id's modern games don't really have much of a MP community, Quake 4, which was released around the same time as COD 4 doesn't even have that many players left, while COD 4 still has a large player base (And if you say COD 4 sucked, there is something wrong with you, no offense) and that is because COD 4 boosted their franchise for the better, before, there games weren't really that known until 4 came out which implemented new things while staying original, fresh. Quake 4 on the other hand did nothing new to do this which is why nobody plays this online anymore that much. Rage, which was only released a couple of years back doesn't even have many people playing this online. Quake Live also I've seen a lack of players, but I can defend that, for it is just a browser version of Q3 which I actually enjoy and still play to this day, but, you can really start to see a lack of players. If one thing Id is really good at still these days, is multiplayer. (Quake 4 was also a third party game but still had a big help from Id Software)

Multiplayer I see doesn't really need to be changed in their games for it is very simple, yet fun. Pick up a weapon off the ground and go, whatever will do. Lets not to say MP in FPS games these days don't have fun MP too, tons of them do. That doesn't mean though that Id should'nt consider adding new things in MP as well (Once again, no I don't mean regen health or ADS). If you're still reading, then holy crap, what the balls you made it! And I really thank those that took the time to read. Id Software is dying and will be dead soon if they don't start making new ideas soon. Tons of their games are being made by other devs as well such as Raven Software, but, Id Software still plays the main part in making these games. The third party games still go the way I see it, to both Id, and that Company for their help in the development of these so the whole third party thing should not be an excuse to defend Id when they did contribute to the factor. Hopefully, DooM 4 will introduce new things into their formula that I hope helps the company out for the better.

I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors Id Software, stay Strong and I still can't wait for Doom 4 :)
Última alteração por Phantomizer; 13 Ago, 2013 às 10:44
A mostrar 1-15 de 52 comentários
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Gild 11 Ago, 2013 às 19:36 
hum...very well put...and unfortunatly, i agree with it.
ShadowsRage 11 Ago, 2013 às 20:29 
Yeah it's the sad truth really. But I have to disagree with fps games being good today though haha. Today's games don't seem to capture my intrest as much as the games of the past. Maybe it's nostalgia or something random like that, but even today, when I play old games (doom, quake, system shock, bioshock 1 to a certain extent, deus ex 1) I stay glued to the screen for hours. That dosen't happen with newer games for me.

For me the focus on a "cinematic experience" in today's games is just belonny and goes totally in the opposite direction of what I want a game to be: fun, which means focused on gameplay. Sure the story might be engrossing and interesting, and might make people talk a hole lot about the game, but if it isn't fun what's the point (yeah I am looking at you bioshock infinite with your bland gunplay)? Sure some odd games might come out that are relatively fun, but they aren't as fun as old games because of lack of focus on the gameplay. Games try too hard to be too many things (open world, cinematic, scripted, dynamic, story driven, etc, etc) that it delutes the game and just makes the gameplay go on the back burner which ultimalty makes the games mediocre for me. Add that to the fact that we see more and more clones of games because "That's where the moneysss are atss devs!" and we have a sad state of a game industry.

Now I am not saying story driven games should be banned from the face of the earth. They have their place and since games are considered more and more works of art it is just natural that games evolve in that direction. But there should at least be an opposite to this evolution. Why don't some devs have games that focus on hardcore gameplay and just that (thankfully we are starting to see that today with rise of the triad and maybe the new shadow warrior but it took a hell of a lot of time). If story driven games become the norm today why not have the "creativity" to go against the grain and try to make a gameplay driven game?
Última alteração por ShadowsRage; 11 Ago, 2013 às 20:32
oberonqa 11 Ago, 2013 às 21:36 
Not to put too fine a point on it or anything... but I think you are perhaps confusing games MADE by id Software with games that are LICENSED out to third-party developers.

From Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Software#Games_by_external_developers

Games MADE by id Software:
-------------------------------------------
Wolfenstein 3D (1992)
Spear of Destiny (1992)
Doom (1993)
Doom II: Hell on Earth (1994)
The Ultimate Doom (1995)
Master Levels for Doom II (1995)
Final Doom (1996)
Quake (1996)
Quake II (1997)
Quake III Arena (1999)
Quake III: Team Arena (2000)
Doom 3 (2004)
Rage (2011)
Doom 3 BFG Edition (2012)
Doom 4 (TBA)

Games LICENSED out to third-party developers:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Heretic — Raven Software (1994)
Hexen — Raven Software (1995)
Doom 64 — Midway Games (1997)
Hexen II — Raven Software (1997)
Towers of Darkness: Heretic, Hexen & Beyond (1997)
Quake expansion packs
Scourge of Armagon — Ritual Entertainment (1997)
Dissolution of Eternity — Rogue Entertainment (1997)
Quake: The Offering(1998)
Quake II expansion packs
The Reckoning — Gray Matter Interactive (1998)
Ground Zero — Rogue Entertainment (1998)
Quake II: Quad Damage (1999)
Return to Castle Wolfenstein — Gray Matter Interactive, Nerve Software (multiplayer) (2001)
Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory — Splash Damage (2003)
Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil — Nerve Software (2005)
Quake 4 — Raven Software (2005)
Doom RPG — Fountainhead Entertainment (2005)
Orcs & Elves — Fountainhead Entertainment (2006)
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars — Splash Damage (2007)
Wolfenstein RPG — Electronic Arts (2008)
Doom Resurrection — Escalation Studios (2009)
Wolfenstein — Raven Software (2009)
Wolfenstein: The New Order - MachineGames (2014)

Some of the games you have mentioned in your post aren't even made by id Software... games such as Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Quake 4 for example. Is it id Software's fault that Quake 4 was uninspired and lackluster? Or is it the fault of Raven Software, the company that MADE the actual game while all id Software did was provide the engine (id Tech 4)?

Keep in mind that for a long time, id Software had a pretty healthy engine licensing subsidation going on. They have moved away from that in recent years... probably due to their acquisition by ZeniMax. In a lot of ways, Epic Megagames has taken over the role that for a number of years id Software filled.

But that doesn't mean that the games that id Software has actually made are bad. If you look at the list of games they actually made, they are all pretty good games. Even Rage is considered a decent FPS game, despite being sidetracted by RPG elements (take those away and look at the shooter elements and it's not a bad game... it's only the RPG and driving elements that most people tend to take issue with.)

Just figured I'd point out the difference there, as it's a bit unfair to blame id Software for games they didn't make in the first place.
maul 12 Ago, 2013 às 1:45 
First of all i dont disagree with what you said here. However question could rather be what kind of FPS do you like? ID games might be similar but the reason i do love them is it most of the times is just fiction. I dont enjoy FPS games that is military based on reality like example COD. But i dont say it is bad games, it is just not my cop of tea. Also thing is todays games dont build up the same strong multiplayer system as the old ones simply because it come out more and more games and people moving on to next game. Before it was different because it wasent the same speed in creating more games i think. Also all the concoles. I do wonder if any games will have the amount of players at same time and under the amount of time as games as Quake 3 arena and counter strike and Unreal tournament had? I doubt that just because it is so many games that come. I dont think we will see any game that be as the old ones in the long turn so to speak. Just my opinion.
cos-buster 12 Ago, 2013 às 3:45 
Originalmente postado por oberonqa:
Not to put too fine a point on it or anything... but I think you are perhaps confusing games MADE by id Software with games that are LICENSED out to third-party developers.

Yeah, I was going to write that too!

Anyway, I agree that id is facing a difficult period and everything about its future will depend on how Doom4 ends up. Thankfully, they seem to realise this themselves so who knows, maybe they will actually deliver and survive.
Phantomizer 12 Ago, 2013 às 4:36 
Originalmente postado por oberonqa:
Not to put too fine a point on it or anything... but I think you are perhaps confusing games MADE by id Software with games that are LICENSED out to third-party developers.

From Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Software#Games_by_external_developers

Games MADE by id Software:
-------------------------------------------
Wolfenstein 3D (1992)
Spear of Destiny (1992)
Doom (1993)
Doom II: Hell on Earth (1994)
The Ultimate Doom (1995)
Master Levels for Doom II (1995)
Final Doom (1996)
Quake (1996)
Quake II (1997)
Quake III Arena (1999)
Quake III: Team Arena (2000)
Doom 3 (2004)
Rage (2011)
Doom 3 BFG Edition (2012)
Doom 4 (TBA)

Games LICENSED out to third-party developers:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Heretic — Raven Software (1994)
Hexen — Raven Software (1995)
Doom 64 — Midway Games (1997)
Hexen II — Raven Software (1997)
Towers of Darkness: Heretic, Hexen & Beyond (1997)
Quake expansion packs
Scourge of Armagon — Ritual Entertainment (1997)
Dissolution of Eternity — Rogue Entertainment (1997)
Quake: The Offering(1998)
Quake II expansion packs
The Reckoning — Gray Matter Interactive (1998)
Ground Zero — Rogue Entertainment (1998)
Quake II: Quad Damage (1999)
Return to Castle Wolfenstein — Gray Matter Interactive, Nerve Software (multiplayer) (2001)
Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory — Splash Damage (2003)
Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil — Nerve Software (2005)
Quake 4 — Raven Software (2005)
Doom RPG — Fountainhead Entertainment (2005)
Orcs & Elves — Fountainhead Entertainment (2006)
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars — Splash Damage (2007)
Wolfenstein RPG — Electronic Arts (2008)
Doom Resurrection — Escalation Studios (2009)
Wolfenstein — Raven Software (2009)
Wolfenstein: The New Order - MachineGames (2014)

Some of the games you have mentioned in your post aren't even made by id Software... games such as Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Quake 4 for example. Is it id Software's fault that Quake 4 was uninspired and lackluster? Or is it the fault of Raven Software, the company that MADE the actual game while all id Software did was provide the engine (id Tech 4)?

Keep in mind that for a long time, id Software had a pretty healthy engine licensing subsidation going on. They have moved away from that in recent years... probably due to their acquisition by ZeniMax. In a lot of ways, Epic Megagames has taken over the role that for a number of years id Software filled.

But that doesn't mean that the games that id Software has actually made are bad. If you look at the list of games they actually made, they are all pretty good games. Even Rage is considered a decent FPS game, despite being sidetracted by RPG elements (take those away and look at the shooter elements and it's not a bad game... it's only the RPG and driving elements that most people tend to take issue with.)

Just figured I'd point out the difference there, as it's a bit unfair to blame id Software for games they didn't make in the first place.
Yea, forgot to include the whole third party developer thing, I will modify soon. Also, I am not saying they are BAD, just that they just don't seem as exciting as they were back then. And I also agree on some of your points. But, also, Still Id played a big part in dev period (In an interview, Id also said they will be contributing to the development of Quake 4 and that also many other third party games that they contributed to as well). Now, I am not BLAMING anybody, and I never said there games were bad in anyway, I think you may have got the wrong message while reading. I was just saying that sometimes, it is not good to keep old ideas which is why Id is not really getting off on some of their games well. Trust me, I did not say there games were bad at all, just that their formula is getting old and stale. Why? It is the same thing, get ammo, kill some enemies, progress to another room, kill more, and it becomes a little bit to expectant now. Like D7602 said, it starts to get repetitive, and becomes anticipated gameplay at that point. But trust me, their is nobody to blame in this. This is not a critical bashing, just a thought I had on why their games barely make the impact they did back then and some ideas on how to get Id back on its feet.
Última alteração por Phantomizer; 12 Ago, 2013 às 5:03
d7602002 12 Ago, 2013 às 4:41 
I agree with the OP. I know exactly what he means about a game being fun, but then tedious and tiresome by the end. I used to love nothing but shooting anything that moves, but then after playing different types of games I realized that sometimes the suspense is more exciting than the action.

What I mean by this is in ID games you enter a room and kill several creatures, then the next, do the same....then after getting the item you want more creatures spawn. So you are just thinking, kill, kill, kill...etc. Fun, but after a while, it can get monotonous. Yet while playing a game like Dead Space I would enter a room, wait for a creature and nothing. Walk down the hallway, expecting a creature, nothing. Enter another room not expecting something and blam, there it was. I felt that the game was more intense with nothing happening rather than a constant barrage of enemies.

I have played 23 hours of Doom 3 but the last 3 or 4 it's been just to finish the game. I am on ROE right now, with a couple levels left and am just trying to get to the end so I can say I completed it.

But on the contrary I have 27 hours of Assassin's Creed 2 and am only 1/2 way through it and it is still a joy to play. I sit at work waiting to get home to play it.
Phantomizer 12 Ago, 2013 às 5:07 
Originalmente postado por maul:
First of all i dont disagree with what you said here. However question could rather be what kind of FPS do you like? ID games might be similar but the reason i do love them is it most of the times is just fiction. I dont enjoy FPS games that is military based on reality like example COD. But i dont say it is bad games, it is just not my cop of tea. Also thing is todays games dont build up the same strong multiplayer system as the old ones simply because it come out more and more games and people moving on to next game. Before it was different because it wasent the same speed in creating more games i think. Also all the concoles. I do wonder if any games will have the amount of players at same time and under the amount of time as games as Quake 3 arena and counter strike and Unreal tournament had? I doubt that just because it is so many games that come. I dont think we will see any game that be as the old ones in the long turn so to speak. Just my opinion.
I enjoy any FPS game that appeals to me, Military or not. Many games like FEAR 3 or Crysis 3 I enjoyed, I also enjoyed other games like Deus Ex (Yea while it is an RPG at heart, it also is an FPS), and Prey. These are all GREAT games that people just look at and say "O look, another COD rip-off, BORING, imma go play my classics now and bash COD more for no reason" I agree with what you said here, COD has not been my Cup of Tea either (After 4, WaW, and MW2, that is when it started to fail), but I am just tired of people not giving other games a try based on ONE game. Glad that you gave some fine points too :)
BIOHAZARDCURE 12 Ago, 2013 às 19:54 
I really wish that the multiplayer was still active in most id games...Its a damn shame.
motorsep 13 Ago, 2013 às 2:00 
I wish I had time to read all these rants, but, Rage is an awesome game (with a few drawbacks such as lack of solid ending, lack of DLCs, lack of modding docs). I truly enjoyed it. Doom 3 BFG engine release was an awesome gift too :)
Luso91915 13 Ago, 2013 às 9:46 
ID made only 1 game in past few years and that is Rage. I liked it but the second half of the game was worse.
Phantomizer 13 Ago, 2013 às 10:30 
Originalmente postado por KINGSHREE:
ID made only 1 game in past few years and that is Rage. I liked it but the second half of the game was worse.
Yea, but they also helped worked on a lot of their third party licesnsed games as well. Quake 4 they contributed a Big part too and a lot of ideas for Q4 was from Id themselves. As for Rage, yea, it was good at the first part, but then, it became frustrating and started to get a little bit boring almost. Glad you took the time to read :)
Phantomizer 13 Ago, 2013 às 10:36 
Originalmente postado por BIOHAZARDCURE:
I really wish that the multiplayer was still active in most id games...Its a damn shame.
It really is, if there is one thing I like Id for, its multiplayer, wish more people would log back into Quake 4 on xbox since Q4 has no splitscreen multiplayer :C
Gild 13 Ago, 2013 às 11:35 
i think everyone who read the OP's first post till the end should get a trading card :)
dirty pete 13 Ago, 2013 às 14:11 
When Todd H. left id I can't help but feel they are just running on borrowed time now, unless they really pull through with Doom 4 (which I don't think they will)
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Postado a: 11 Ago, 2013 às 15:58
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