Endless Space

Endless Space

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DimentoGraven May 9, 2013 @ 8:28pm
An AI Programmed to Cheat
I get so frustrated with game developers these days, they think that "impossible" means fun. That's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. These guys apparently couldn't write the AI to win within its own rules so they allow the AI to cheat, cheat, cheat and do nothing BUT cheat.

This thing, in normal difficulty, tiny universe, no pirates(I mean c'mon the pirates ONLY attack you, so why play against more computer opponents than you really want?) I come out and drive the Automatons full on, expanding to more than half the available planets, and no matter what the opposing race is, they start attacking, and doing nothing BUT attacking. They've got maybe 10 systems, but they're able to have the economy to pay for building and maintaining over 1,000 ships, 68 turns into the game?!?!!?

I don't think so.

Dev edit: please keep your comments respectful, thank you.
Last edited by Steph(✿◠‿◠); May 14, 2013 @ 6:14am
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Showing 1-15 of 242 comments
Thanter May 10, 2013 @ 4:05pm 
I get so frustrated with game players these days, they think that losing a game means the AI is cheating. These guys apparently can't accept that the problem might be them and not the AI cheating.

Seriously, after losing a few games, you get the hang of things and normal isn't that difficult. But if losing a game is that hurtful to you, do like others suggest and find an easier game to play.

Pirates do attack the AI, that's why I leave them on. Pirates usually stunt the growth on some of the AI. The rest I suspect you are exaggerating,

Stop wearing your feelings on your sleeve, then maybe you won't rage post every time you lose a game. It's really bad form.
Old Ben May 10, 2013 @ 6:12pm 
Originally posted by DimentoGraven:
This f'ing thing, in normal difficulty, tiny universe, no pirates(I mean c'mon the pirates ONLY attack you, so why play against more computer opponents than you really want?)

I actually make use of pirates in the early game by using them to level up my hero commanders. Once you have explored the systems around you, they will stop spawning in areas you have influence on.
Last edited by Old Ben; May 10, 2013 @ 6:13pm
Lumione May 12, 2013 @ 4:40pm 
Thanter, I've experienced something similar to the OP's predicament. I got super lucky and got a Dust Cloud on my starter system. This allowed me to churn out a full seven ship, 1800MP warfleet by turn 13, which i promptly took into my enemies territory. I would wait for him to settle a system, invade, and claim it for my own, all the while churning out further warships to defend the colonies i had taken.

In less than 100 turns, i had claimed the entire galaxy, except for two systems, which i allowed him to keep. Even with only two systems and five planets to his name, he was able to churn out three or four ships a turn, which he continually ran face-first into my superior numbers. at one point, he ran his treasury into the negatives and it stayed there for three or four turns. I don't know if he had to sacrifice any ships/planetary improvements, but his tax rate didn't change for those four turns.

The AI does not have to operate under the same rules as the player under ANY difficulty. This is blatant and unfair.

And, above all, it's nothing new. There are reviews for this game that called it "Endless Spam" instead of endless space. It was fixed some time ago, but after recently returning to the game, i've noticed the problem seems to have returned.
Last edited by Lumione; May 12, 2013 @ 4:42pm
Thanter May 12, 2013 @ 8:02pm 
I found this http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Game_settings page when investigating the difficulty modifiers. The AI does get bonuses, but what 4X game doesn't need to give the AI bonuses to make it competitive. It's all we got until someone builds a sentient AI. Besides those bonuses, I have never seen any proof that the AI cheats by breaking rules.

Most posts like the OP offer incomplete information. Some factions have powerful production perks, other have economic advantages. Every time someone describes an equal sized fleet stomping them I wonder if it isn't the Hissho with active Bushido,

And many offer incorrect information like the OP's assertion that pirates only attack the player. It's difficult to take claims of cheating serious when the person making the claim shows a lack of understanding of the game.

The OP is certainly exaggerating with over 1000 ships. What you described, two syatems churning out three or four ships per turn after turn 100 isn't that amazing really. We talking destroyers or titans?

Perhaps there is a bug that allows the AI to get away with some economic trickery when it goes bankrupt. But even you couldn't be sure that they didn't find a way to infuse their treasury with some cash. I won't believe it unless someone offers proof beyond speculation and observation.

It's really the bruised dead horse of 4X games. Whether giving the AI bonuses is cheating or making the game a challange for humans. Reviews are seldom written by people with more than a few hours into a game.
DimentoGraven May 13, 2013 @ 12:16pm 
Before turn 100, owning ~200 ships. Before turn 100, before having all the nice technologies to add to your populations contentment, or the other technologies to mitigate/resolve anomolies with negative modifiers, having the majority of systems where the contentment index would be MORE than -100, AND STILL able to churn out, turn after turn, in building new ships?

No, in this case, even with a 4x modifier, the AI has to be completely ignoring ALL the rules on economy and contentment.

The AI does cheat, pure and simple.

I've played against more intelligent AI's (ala: Galactic Civilizations II) where, at the very least, the cheats were realistically scaled to match the selected difficulty.

As far as I can tell there's only ONE difficulty in ES, that's the "♥♥♥♥ You, YOU LOSE" difficulty. All the difficulty setting does is manipulate how long the AI has before he destroys your empire.

Dev edit: please keep your comments respectful, thank you.
Last edited by Steph(✿◠‿◠); May 14, 2013 @ 6:15am
gamebiffa May 13, 2013 @ 3:31pm 
You know I've had the game two days and I was just coming on to write exactly the same thing. Had a Pilgrim faction pinned to just two systems and they were producing on average 4 ships a system each turn! It's utterly destroyed the game for me, I wouldn't mind on Hard but it was only set on Normal.

So annoyed, feel really cheated.
Steph(✿◠‿◠)  [developer] May 14, 2013 @ 6:20am 
Originally posted by Thanter:
I found this http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Game_settings page when investigating the difficulty modifiers.

This. The AI does get bonuses but apart from that, it doesn't cheat - Unless of course, there might be a bug, but feel free to provide us with a save so we can look into it.
Last edited by Steph(✿◠‿◠); May 14, 2013 @ 6:20am
Dark Michael May 14, 2013 @ 3:49pm 
If the AI cheats. you ahve to options cheat or change difficulty lvl. I usually play normal since its funnest. Like in Civ where AI cheats like no tomorrow i hardest difficulty, I cheat too and mod it to the max.
Amokkiller May 16, 2013 @ 11:02am 
If you write that you focus on something new, then Endless Space is but death. As for the development of the game, right? In AI, which already cheating on plain and apparent dent bugs present, 30 € to 35 € very expensive. And I wanted to get the game, too bad, I love those games! If I am wrong or what I Got flasch me, corrected me calm. :) Anything with Googel written translator.
argh! May 16, 2013 @ 10:42pm 
Every AI in every game ever "cheats" in one way or another. Including triple A games like civilisation. Because they are not human. The more complex the game, the harder it is to write a good AI. It took a long time for computers to beat good players in Chess. The best AI still can't beat a decent player in Go. On "fair" terms, the AI can't win, because the AI is pretty much braindead compared to a human. It's just smoke and mirrors, especially in 4x games.

And what you describle doesn't even sound very conclusive. They build 4 ships per turn? Where they expensive ships? If the modules are utter crap, a late game system can easily build many ships. They're just not that useful. Or maybe the AI dind't just throw all their ships you're way once you where comming? I've seen the AI hiding ships in hangar, so, how do you know they were actually buit after you destroyed their last fleet (or however you guys are comming up with those "on average" numbers)?
KindOfExcellent May 17, 2013 @ 9:41pm 
This game is missing a difficulty mode. I forget what the modes are (I uninstalled the game). The difficulty is either way too easy or impossible. I played and failed many times, I got the hang of hwo the game works, I tried my hardest but right at the start of the game, the AI comes along with some over powered fleet and ruins me. The AI really doe sget powerful ships long before it's POSSIBLE for the player to get anything close. It's not a matter of player skill, the game really does cheat.
Tombstone May 19, 2013 @ 12:44pm 
It is truly about micro-managemaent, I have to say. Depite the possiblility that AI is cheating (although I found no trace of), it's possible for players to win any difficulty level, even 'Endless'. In my game in "Endless" difficulty, I created my own fraction and selescted a few features that can help developments in early turns and pinned down the colony fleets of AI twice and prevented them from colonizing for a few turns, which definitely slowed down its development by large. And I finished that small galaxy between 2 players before 100 turns by seizing the whole galaxy. Anyways, I guess the point is not really about fairness; higher difficulty levels are more about "winning against all odds (even unfair conditions) using your own brain power". And I definitely found great pleasure doing that.
FockeWulf May 19, 2013 @ 10:33pm 
There are a few AI's out there that can do alright. The one Paradox uses is pretty good. The military is also working on their own I hear. But these are rare.

You have to understand what an AI really is. Its decision making. But the unique thing about the human brain, which will make it so AI's will never be a serious threat to us, is that AI's can only correctly respond to situations they have been programmed to reconize. If you are within this situations then the AI can beat you. The Chess AI was simply a matter of documenting the possible combinations.

Now an AI can be made to learn* via pattern reconition and storage. But that takes time to develope via play and in the code.
Fosite May 20, 2013 @ 8:46pm 
All i can say what i have seen several times now that when i take over 1 of hes systems that was growing like mad and turning out 3 or 4 ships a turn had negative food and industrail, im not that famialer yet with the game, but i assume turning out 3 or 4 cruiser sizes ships in 1 turn takes quite alot of industrie for 1, even if it losses "bonuses" affter i take it over it can't be so much that it turns into a negative number.
Now my last game a AI with 2 systems pumped out 3000 power worth of ships in 3 turns, and this was at turn 21 of the game. So yes i have seen things i would consider it either cheating or there being some bug in the game.
So it would be nice to know that Endless game still is being worked on as well and not just a expension we have to pay for again as well, we paid for this game and we would like to see this still being worked on cause it doesn't seem to be a fully devolped game yet.
Aleksandros May 21, 2013 @ 9:37pm 
I've managed to win against normal AI relatively easily as Hissho, UE, and my Custom Race. The game really isn't THAT hard, you just have to know what you're doing. I just started playing it a good bit, just did a bit of reading and I found out how. This game is still developing as well so I give it a wee bit of a pass, I like 4x games so I keep trucking. Thus far I have very minor complaints with this game none I give any wish to voice because they're so minor.
Last edited by Aleksandros; May 21, 2013 @ 9:40pm
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