PerfectXtreme Apr 28, 2013 @ 7:35pm
Endless Space Disappointments
Finished a full Huge galaxy with max enemy AI and took control of entire galaxy so It's safe to say I fully experienced the game... And...


- Combat is terrible. Automated battles that are EXTREMELY slow. When i'm trying to quickly resolve multiple fights and I accidently hit "manual" I almost want to Alt+F4.

- Combat is meaningless. The MTG card system is just bad. After trying out all different combinations of cards I finally realized I can just hit "auto" without selecting cards and get the same results out of every battle. If you have Equal armies you have a 50/50 chance to win even when selecting no cards at all.

- Ability to have unlimited numbers of ships ruins the enjoyment. Near the end you end up pumping out 100's of 1000's of ships non stop and just sending wave after wave until you finally win... This is a requirement consider the computer AI is going to do the exact same thing. There needs to be a cost/cap of some sort that makes having unlimited numbers of ships impossible.

- Outfittings ships is meh. You basically load up equal parts offense and defense on every ship and enjoy your 50/50 win ratios. I was fighting against a faction that used 100% laser technology so I outfitted all of my ships with laser armor and it made no difference. 50/50 win chance. I switched my attack type around to counter the armor they had and it again made no difference.

- There was no exploration or mystery. Every system was the same. The random artifacts or whatever make no real difference. No reason to explore the galaxy and control specific systems. Just dominate everything until you win.

- Cheating is too easy. How do you ask? Stay on neutral/friendly (but closed boarders) terms with all factions. Pick one faction you want to destroy. Open up negotiations, take all the tech they have to offer and trade them your resources (not dust) in return. As soon as you get the tech, cancel the deal. You just got all free research from them and offered nothing in return. Once you've got all the research declare war and destroy them. Rinse and repeat. You'll end up with all the tech really fast. WHICH...

- Tech means very little it seems. I appeared to be way ahead of another faction in tech and combat still seemed to be 50/50 win chance. Somehow, even with all my tech advantage they still had similar (or close enough) military power ratings to put up a fight.
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Kenji Tamada Apr 29, 2013 @ 1:33pm 
I call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
The battle cards give you the promised effects, so if you think ignoring 20% more damage has no effect.... well I simply don´t know what to say.
Why should the ships numbers be limited??? If you have the gold to field it, you should be able to buy it.
Outfitting is the same as the battle cards... 50/50 win ratio is quite bad imho
There are sweet systems out there that you simply want. If you are ready to trade your 6 planet system with garden of eden and solar farm for a 2 asteroids system...
The cheating I will adress afterwards.
So...you lead in tech and get only 50/50? Could be due to the missing 20% damage from the cards? If you use cards and only get 50% win rate, think about your ship design.

The cheating is the only part I agree on, but well if you want to cheat there will always be a way. Whether it is abusing a mechanic or a console command. It would be cool if the designers would work on this, but there are more important things.
Necron Lord Apr 29, 2013 @ 3:04pm 
Op is right. End.
Tiny, King of the Throws Apr 30, 2013 @ 1:04pm 
Actually, OP is full of it. You can see how your weapons and defenses match up prior to a battle and have a pretty good sense of how it's going to turn out. Cards are meant to be another layer on top, and don't really hugely sway things in one direction or another, but good choices can have a significant impact, especially if you plan around the strengths and weaknesses of your loadouts given the range, etc.
The best evidence of how meaningless this supposed '50/50 ratio' is is the idea that having 'more tech' should improve it. More tech in what? Are you upgrading your ships? Nonsense.
Thanter Apr 30, 2013 @ 5:59pm 
Another post on Steam that made me look to see if the poster actually owned the game.

I agree the manual battles are painfully slow and I seldom sit through the animations. I will sit through them to see when and where my fleets are having success and when/where they are taking a beating. I would like to see detailed battle reports broken down by turn though, or a speed slider.

The cards DO matter, they can change an even fight into a low loss victory. If all your cards are countered, it makes an even fight a painful loss. Tech DOES matter, fall behind and you find out quickly that tech leads win. If you have a 50/50 win/loss you are playing wrong, i.e. not spending time refitting to counter the AI.

The most misleading comment is unlimited ships. It is limited by your economy, just because you apparently just kept building ships and sending them to slaughter doesn't mean there isn't a cap. I always find myself balancing the max fleets I can field and keeping them upgraded with the latest tech.

My guess is that you picked a faction that fit into your playstyle and your first game went well for you. Try again with a different faction and maybe a higher difficulty. You don't say if you changed settings to make the game easier. One game isn't enough to make such generalizations.

Not liking a game is fine, but your descriptions of the gameplay are incorrect and misleading.
PerfectXtreme May 1, 2013 @ 9:29am 
I created a custom faction focussed on research (which is my playstyle). My tech advantage (much of it from cheating) made little to no difference.

Again, my fleets with 45,000 MP vs 50,000 mp were a 50/50 win chance playing 0 cards or full cards. Even playing cards where I got the yellow + made little difference.

There was a period of time vs one of the factions where my fleets were 42,000 vs 39,000 and I would get constant +'s on all my cards and still end up with a 50/50 chance.

My opinions and experience with the game are 100% valid and you can fool yourself into thinking otherwise if it helps you sleep at night. I recently loaded up Stardrive and that game has a long list of other issues that need resolved but combat was NOT one of them (at least not nearly as bad as this game).

I've invested more hours into gaming than any normal human should and Endless Space has some of the worst combat i've seen. In a 4x.
Thanter May 1, 2013 @ 9:25pm 
Meh, I used to walk barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways, to drop my quarters in a slot before home computers were even invented. I'd bet you were still a twinkle in your daddies eye when I started playing video games. It doesn't mean squat though. You played one game of ES and thought you had it all figured out. Armchair quaterback be foolin.

You opinions are valid since they are opinions. Your experience is limited to one game, and your commentary shows it.

Custom races can easily be made OP. If you had the tech lead you thought you had, your fleet MP would have dwarved the opponents. If you had the tech lead you thought you had, you wouldn't be able to 'cheat' for tech. 45k to 50k is basically an even fight, so I'd expect 50/50. Having the tech lead means you get to curb stomp the AI while disregarding cards and heros.

I've logged a few hours into ES, my opinion is that the cards make a difference. Not the end all be all, but a noticable difference. Played right you win the match and limit your losses.

ES isn't a combat simulator, it's a Rock,Paper, Scissors match. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who wants to play realtime combat games. ES focuses more on empire building. Like all 4X games, once you get the jump on the AI and take over an opponent or two, you've pretty much won the game, and it's just a matter of going through the paces. Unless someone sneaks in a wonder/science victory, which has happened to me a few times.

Can't stop people from breaking their own game and complaining about it though.
Warhawke May 2, 2013 @ 10:34am 
Strongly disagree with the OP and it just shows different strokes for different folks. I love the combat in Endless Space, though I would agree with Thanter that a speed slider would be nice so each person could adjust the animation combat speed to their own patience level. I enjoy the more cinematic effect where I feel like I am watching the forces battle it out like a TV show or a movie. Admittedly, I am the kind of person that tends to auto-resolves the vast majority of battles in most other turn-based/rts 4x/empire-builders. I find in the vast majority of games such as the Total War series the combat is even less relevant than Endless Spaces card based system. When your stack of 4 spearmen attack an enemy stack of 1 spearmen it makes no difference how much clicking you do maneuvering your forces around the map it will still end virtually the same as a frontal assault. The only difference manual combat or card based makes is in a close fight and either system simply sways the battle in one direction or the other. Any combat system that is based on mathematics is essentially going to work out the same with some random rolls generating the occasional surprise. Even the occasional surprises though are going to work themselves out statistically. If you don't want statistics to determine the outcomes you are pretty much forced to play FPS type games.

The reasons your fleet was only winning 50/50 is fairly obvious from your post. You made a custom race that was heavily tech focused. You were likely fighting races that were either more balanced or combat focused giving them greater combat abilities. What you were experiencing it sounds like is actual game balance. Your tech focused race relied on its tech advantage to keep combat 'balance' not result in a blow out in your favor every time. I call that good race design balance.

You also made nothing but extremely generic 50/50 ship designs and are surprised you only have a 50/50 win ratio. Lol. Put some thought and effort it the design of your ships and weapons/defenses of your enemy and you will do dramatically better than 50/50. Also, did you notice that each hull type has advantages and disadvantages for different types of systems? That also makes a dramatic difference in the combat. Being lazy and just churning out 100s of generic ships is going to result in abysmal combat losses. That's not the games fault. As far as claiming you made ships 100% to counter your enemy and it made no difference - I call foul. The game system being what it is, had you actually done this you would have annihilated your opponent and taken zero losses. Simple as that, saying otherwise is outright fabrication. The AI will counter your counter ships fairly quickly if you continue to use them and sometimes the AI makes fairly balanced ships that aren't as vulnerable to being countered. You have to keep your fleet designs fresh and changing which is one of the interesting things about this game.

The star systems are MUCH more varied than in most 4X games. All those special resources are fairly significant for certain types of tech and/or give empire wide bonuses. A really good system near your border is certainly casus belli.

Cheating or using exploits is entirely up to you. Virtually every game I have ever played has some cheap way of exploiting some weakness in the AI. If you find that doing so ruins your enjoyment of the game then don't do such things. Simple as that.
PerfectXtreme May 2, 2013 @ 2:02pm 
People have personally insulted me and said I'm wrong but have yet to show any proof or explanation as to why...

I said, out of 100's of battles using cards or not using cards I always had a 50/50 chance of victory.

This was very obvious to me when I would get all 3 cards with + on them, enemy would have a few RED (failures) or just normal green's, we would have even fleets... and it was a 50/50 chance for victory.

If an enemy fleet is 100% energy weapon based. I build ships with 100% energy weapon defense, and I play energy weapon defense cards, AND I get a bonus on those cards because I countered the enemy cards... I should destroy them. But I didn't. It was 50/50 chance for victory, or both sides suffered heavy losses.

I had unlimited funds and owned a majority of the largest galaxy size. I spent the last few hours rebuilding ships over and over attempting to find a way to make the combat/defense/cards actually matter.

I basically had "cheat codes" enabled in that I had so much money and was instantly building the strongest fleets that I could try every combination of anything I wanted. Nothing made a difference. The only real combat change that mattered was assigning an agent/commander/whatever to the fleet. That would double/triple the MP and you would typially stomp anything.

Anyway, if someone asked me "Should I get ES or Sins?" I would say Sins hands down. Both games have almost equal depth and the combat in Sins is way better and choices made by the player make a huge difference.
Nats May 5, 2013 @ 10:39am 
Just to chime in with my view I played one full game of Endless Space several months ago totalling about 75 hours of play and had a bit of fun playing it, but it got a bit labourious at the end and I havent been back to it. It is very souless and although it looks very nice there isnt much variation and playability to keep you coming back for more. At the moment it is still on my Steam installed list whilst I play other games and I might come back to it at some point.

But as way of a comparison I got Kerbal Space Program a couple of months ago, played it for 170 hours and am still wanting to go back and play it more. And there is still loads to be added to it yet unlike ES which seems to have had all development ceased (I assume they are all working on the expansion pack).

Having said all that ES remains one of my most played games on Steam but I dont play games much these days. Minecraft and KSP have both been played a lot more as has Battle of Britain 2, mostly non-Steam games. And I have a list of games including ARMA2 and Hearts of Iron 3 that I would rather go back to play than playing ES again. It will probably come off my hard-disk soon and not go back on.

I cant imagine I will want to get the expansion pack.
Last edited by Nats; May 5, 2013 @ 10:42am
Thanter May 5, 2013 @ 10:46am 
@OP,
Sorry if you feel insulted, on my part I was responding to your premise that I was the one fooling myself. You've expressed an opinion that other's don't share. You back up that opinion with 'facts' that other's find rather unfactual. Don't be surprised when people refute those 'facts'.

I'm not sure what 'proof' you expect, we are just sharing experiences here after all. One small fact that has been refuted is that ships are unlimited. As other's stated, it is limited by your economy. But you wouldn't know that because you broke your economy with a 'cheat code'. I chose this because it shows how you changed the game dramatically with your codes, and it highlights how your experience doesn't represent what other's experience playing as the game was meant to be played.

What it boils down to is that you played one game, with a custom faction that may have been overpowered, and then apparently enabled 'cheat codes'. Only you know what other options you mucked with to make the game easier. You broke the game dude. And after breaking your game, you decide to share your experience as 'facts'.

Try playing the game the way it was meant to be played. I lost several games before I won one. Personally I like games I can lose, and I try to take my losses as learning experiences. Made my first win that much nicer.

If your complaint was that the combat system isn't to your liking, I probably wouldn't have responded. That's a fair opinion and one that others share. My problem is that the 'facts', as you protray them, clearly indicate that you have NOT experienced the whole game as you indicated in the OP.
Last edited by Thanter; May 5, 2013 @ 10:47am
Relex1st48 May 5, 2013 @ 10:09pm 
I find the animations rather enjoyable ^_^ I love how i can be eating a small snack while some battle is going on.
Kadafi_outlawZ May 6, 2013 @ 3:02am 
There's even no campaign in Endless Space. That's very dissapointing. In my opinion Galactic Civilizations 2 is much more interesting game.
Last edited by Kadafi_outlawZ; May 6, 2013 @ 8:41am
theastonishingtemplarofapplepie May 6, 2013 @ 8:56am 
"the cheating" you're saying about is called politics and it works in real world :D unfortunately...
Morthis May 7, 2013 @ 6:38am 
The "cheating" is something that is very common for diplomacy in 4X type games. We expect the AI to be reasonable but we ourselves are completely unreasonable in diplomacy. For example, if there was a stronger AI, we expect that using diplomacy, we would be able to keep this AI at bay and focus him on other targets instead. Using diplomacy to your advantage to survive, or even ally, with the strong AI is a key aspect of most 4X games. Yet, if the AI played like we did, it should demand all our stuff for peace, and then go ahead and kill us anyway. Of course, if an AI actually did do this, everybody would call it a broken diplomacy system. Basically, we expect to play the AI by rules we ourselves won't follow. That's not the system's fault, that's your fault for abusing it. You may as well just look up a cheat code and play that way.

As for "proving you wrong" about the battles. Uh, you provided zero proof yourself. You said battles went a certain way, provided zero data, proof, or anything. So since you said you did 100's of battles (doubt it), I'll say I did 1000's of battles showing the exact opposite. There you go, undeniable proof of the same quality as yours.
Byeohazard May 9, 2013 @ 12:59am 
Originally posted by Relex1st48:
I find the animations rather enjoyable ^_^ I love how i can be eating a small snack while some battle is going on.

Finaly! Someone that has their head on straight! Thumbs up..like like like!
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Date Posted: Apr 28, 2013 @ 7:35pm
Posts: 118