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cassus 19 juil 2013 à 16h14
Are snipers really necessary
So for the past year or so I've noticed that sniper rifles actually don't add anything to a game what so ever, aside from joy to those who can click accurately on stuff. It's not skillful, it's just precision with a mouse. That's all you need. I know snipers will protest to this, but the fact is that if you can click precisely, you're gonna be a great sniper. End of story. (It's also the most utilized weapon for cheating. And by most utilized I mean it's the only weapon any sane person uses for aimbotting in games.)

So.. What do snipers actually add to a game for everyone else? Frustration.. This has become painfully obvious in games like Tribes Ascend and Loadout where the fights themselves are actually really fun. Example: Me and another dude go at it in Tribes. The fights can take a while in there, and the long lasting fights are amazingly fun. Now here's the problem.. Once a sniper spots two guys having fun.. Fun's over.

Remember how admins used to kick people once stuff started becoming interesting on IRC? That's what snipers are. Server admins who can end people's fun with a single click.

Please be the first game to actually consider removing snipers all together. Snipers are like 10% of the playerbase, and many of those players would use a different weapon if sniper rifles weren't available.

In a game like this, with very few players per team, a precise sniper can lopside and ruin an entire match.

It's sort of weird how snipers are in ALL games yet you see stuff like engineers or infiltrators in very few games. Why did sniper become a must have in A L L games? You don't have m203's in all games. You don't have missile launchers or flame throwers.. I just don't get why the most hated class of all somehow makes it into every god damn game ever. Removing them would lessen the whining on servers by more than half (unless the game has a semi powerful stealther, then it'll stay the same.)

This is probably going to be seen as whining, and I don't really care. I would just love to hear an actual well thought out reason why snipers are in ALL games ever and why engi/stealthers/artillery/whatever is not.
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MagicalSmalrusWalrusJones 19 juil 2013 à 17h58 
Last time I enjoyed sniping was in planetside 1:

It was the last time it was legitimately difficult, two, single magazine shots to kill a man... But you were still one of the most feared things in an infantry fight (Due to the fact that the bolt driver almost totally striped your armor when you take a hit, and being without armor made it so anything was a quick kill.)

And, just to make it clear, it was a thousand times harder to do then any modern games sniping: Turning would make your COF bloom, and shots had travel time, this means you needed to lead your target twice: Once to make sure you can take an accurate shot, and one so your enemy runs into your bullet.

Sure, you didn't need to press a button for four seconds of no screen sway, since there wasn't screen sway whatsoever.


This didn't mean a good sniper couldn't pull their own weight, and terrify the entire enemy team in the process.... Reloading WAS fast, and you could carry two active long arms (You could backpack a several more... But that wasn't usually a good idea,) and two short arms (Usually an armor repair kit, and a point defense pistol.)

A good sniper was annoying and often lethal against everyone, vehicle drivers, infantry, and air would go to great costs exterminating them, especially if they had high ground that was well suited to using some of the more wierd, and versatile weaponry.


And, you can still do the same today in the small scale battles that are all that is left of that excellent, old game.




This, difficult, but annoying, taxing, and very very consistant skill based style of sniping scales incredibly well with fights of all sizes, especially in reinforced exosuits, with some sort of effectively-scaling medium range hybrid weapon. (A multibarrel rocket launcher was my favorite back then, its a mainstay of the loadout community as well.)

Unfortunately, BF1942's lessions of defensive based, burst or loose first, long-ish TTK combat being the key to good competivite infantry combat has been forgotten.
Marvin! (1. Runde gewonnen ;D ) 20 juil 2013 à 11h30 
WOW, i never thought about that but thats really true. They really only add fruststration. Even in Loadout they are totally useless. There is no mode where snipers are needed or useful. You have to cap points or u have to confirm the kills. THese are two things which snipers dont do.

Must fun in this game are the duels. Two players fighting each other. And then a unwanted sniper joins the party. That sucks

But there are a few useful snipers. For example on an unfair fight (1 vs 4 players) a sniper can help u very much. I also use sniper rifles in loadout vs bots ^^ when there are low or new players i always support them with my healin rockets or with my sniper rifle. Thats fun for all of us

What about a medic ? Never tried it but what about a healing sniper rifle. Does that heal much ?

In most shooters snipers are well balanced. The primary weapon is very strong on distance. But in close combat its almost usels. Low health and ur seconday weapons is also very weak (smg in TF2 - or pistols in CoD4) In CoD for example i always walk around the edges of the map to kill all the camping snipers. Of course its getting lame if the sniper carries TWO good weapons like in Loadout.Then they are OP.
But a sniper is a MUST HAVE for a shooter. I dont know any shooter with no sniper. There ever was and there will ever be a sniper. Thats sad but true

Sry my english is not the best but i hope u understand what i tried to tell you about my opinion.

______________________________________

Gray Mann

Timeraider 20 juil 2013 à 13h03 
Tbh in my opinion.. Tribes ascend is the most unbalanced game ever anyway :P (or its just my infiltrator build :P)

Though i would have to agree with the issue with snipers being the only gun that really can make people rage .. i find this:

New guy with sniper: .. nice, free kills because hes standing still

normal guy with sniper: .. ah, better use some skills to avoid his shots and hope he doesnt hit me (this should be the ceiling of what snipers can do... the same as any other gun)

skilled players: ... ok... wtf was that.. was that an aimbot or did that guy really shoot me while he was jumping in the air .. is it really possible to have such ♥♥♥♥ing aim with a sniper while jumping? .. no, it cant be.. how the ♥♥♥♥ ... ow great, clientsided hitdetection.. got shot through a wall again .. .. ow nice.. a headshot whiloe aiming over his shoulder?../quit :P

XD

I really hate snipers tbh and i think especially the way they can be used in loadout (1-shot someone while doing a triple backflip in the air).

Do have to agree that things like short range machineguns, stealthclasses etc. are way to much forgotten by gamedesigners .. though at most games, snipers are quite balanced.
Dernière modification de Timeraider; 20 juil 2013 à 13h04
MagicalSmalrusWalrusJones 20 juil 2013 à 14h05 
The games obsession with one shot kills is a dark sign of things to come, they only continue to become easier, more hitscan/wide projectile, covering more of the human body with their grime.

You couldn't really speak up against this trend on the main forum, where people state that it is a feature of competitive gameplay.
Timeraider 20 juil 2013 à 16h44 
WalrusJones a écrit :
The games obsession with one shot kills is a dark sign of things to come, they only continue to become easier, more hitscan/wide projectile, covering more of the human body with their grime.

You couldn't really speak up against this trend on the main forum, where people state that it is a feature of competitive gameplay.

its just like real-life ... libraries close down because noone comes there anymore, noone pays with cash anymore, society becomes more and more moronic and hype-indulging ....
And so people keep wanted things smoother, faster and without taking even a second of their time or slightest effort. After we became humans we apparently started devolving XD

anyway.. back to the topic XD ... well.. at one hand i have to agree with you but at the other hand. its just beta so they are still adding alot of stuff. What i think they intend to get is a race for the best weapon.
What you then get is someone finds the "strongest weapon" .. but after a small while someone customises a weapon that counters that weapon.. and after that someone else makes a counter for that weapon../ etc. etc. etc.

the thing is.. will this happen or will they just get 1 weapon that counters everything XD
Dernière modification de Timeraider; 20 juil 2013 à 16h44
Evenfall 21 juil 2013 à 2h13 
This thread makes me weep for the future of games. Not everything needs to be balanced, this isn't that type of game and historically games like quake and ut are plenty of fun. You're not going to chase the guy with the rail gun with a plasma rifle, and you're not going to chase the guy with the lightning gun with a goo gun. Most of the time its better to be unbalanced because its more fun. It takes plenty of practice to get very accurate with hitscan weapons. Don't run around in the open jumping around, use level geometry to your advantage and keep it between yourself and the sniper. Snipers have been around forever and are perfectly fine.
Timeraider 21 juil 2013 à 2h49 
KaboomzZz a écrit :
This thread makes me weep for the future of games. Not everything needs to be balanced, this isn't that type of game and historically games like quake and ut are plenty of fun. You're not going to chase the guy with the rail gun with a plasma rifle, and you're not going to chase the guy with the lightning gun with a goo gun. Most of the time its better to be unbalanced because its more fun. It takes plenty of practice to get very accurate with hitscan weapons. Don't run around in the open jumping around, use level geometry to your advantage and keep it between yourself and the sniper. Snipers have been around forever and are perfectly fine.

Well.. depends on wether or not hey use the Sniper as a shotgun on 2 meters distance because its a 100% chance to hit anyway (especially beams XD) no matter where you aim :P
Not complaining at all.. i mean, sniping is boring anyway so they are only making the game less exciting for themselfs, but i can see why people would walk into the game and get enraged by the ease of using certain snipers without disadvantages. Atm sniper is the most versatile gun in the game being able to be used from far ranged as well as still be just as effective at close range if yo know what you are doing.. and that annoys people cause it means the role of "sniper" is far from sitting still at long range.
I myself couldnt care less, but totally understandable that it makes the game less fun for some people .. its like playing dota2 with 4 russians who started playing 1 day ago XD .. and they use voicechat to
Dernière modification de Timeraider; 21 juil 2013 à 2h49
mwalker1212 21 juil 2013 à 8h23 
Well stated. I'm for getting rid of snipers alltogether. They simply ruin the game flow.
cassus 21 juil 2013 à 12h22 
KaboomzZz a écrit :
This thread makes me weep for the future of games. Not everything needs to be balanced, this isn't that type of game and historically games like quake and ut are plenty of fun. You're not going to chase the guy with the rail gun with a plasma rifle, and you're not going to chase the guy with the lightning gun with a goo gun. Most of the time its better to be unbalanced because its more fun. It takes plenty of practice to get very accurate with hitscan weapons. Don't run around in the open jumping around, use level geometry to your advantage and keep it between yourself and the sniper. Snipers have been around forever and are perfectly fine.

Believe it or not, I'm actually not a big balance kinda guy, but I am very much a gameplay kinda guy, and when one class or weapon has done nothing but ♥♥♥♥ off the majority of players for the better part of a decade.. Makes you start thinking about why they're in every game, you know what I mean?

"You're not going to chase the guy with the rail gun with a plasma rifle, and you're not going to chase the guy with the lightning gun with a goo gun."
This is very accurate, cause a sniper just blew my head off from across the map.. This is my point.. I'm constantly looking over my shoulder for something that adds nothing to the game.. Why am I doing this? I should be rolling deep with my posse laying waste, or getting laid wasted. (Wordsmithing, comin' atcha, I guess.)

Also, thanks for the tips on using sniper rifles, but I already know how, especially with hitscan weapons. You adjust your mouse sensitivity down to a crawl, you crouch down in the end of a street, and you shoot everyone running towards or away from you in that street in the head. One shot, one kill. It's so easy it's duuuumb. The people who think that requires some skill are the people whose hand eye coordination is horrible, cause hitscan is exactly the same as clicking on anything in windows.. What you click is what you hit. Click a dude, hit a dude, no bullet travel time or nothing. Guaranteed hit. Even with bullet travel in modern games there's no wind, there's rarely any difficult to handle scope sway, there's no holding your breath, no adjusting your sights for elevation like you do in games where sniping is actually hard as balls (ArmA 3, try that game and come back and tell me sniping is challenging in other games.. The ArmA series is pretty much the only game where sniping isn't by far the easiest weapon to use). When sniping is actually challenging I don't mind them at all. Their instant 'shotgun to the face' level of damage from ranges where no one can fire back, however.. That is not fine. At all. That is cowardly and overall detrimental to gameplay. It's like hunting. The animals have no defense vs a high calibre rifle from 100 meters away. They can run and hide, that's the same for us, run and hide and hope the sniper picks a different target, cause when you have to move again you'll be defenseless. How is that fun for anyone but the sniper? I really must know.. Maybe I can enjoy being sniped as much as some other people..
MagicalSmalrusWalrusJones 21 juil 2013 à 13h49 
I am very much a balancer, but a constructive balancer.

If something far to strong, I try to add something that makes it more fun (either, by making the fun level of dealing with it rise more then the fun that was lost making it easy to deal with, or squaring its difficulty, but leaving it just as potentially rewarding.)

If something is too weak, I will try to make it a soft counter to something to strong, then buff it up to not being a joke. (This means it can SERIOUSLY put the hurt on something that is overpowered while holding its own.)
Stewzors 22 juil 2013 à 8h28 
I don't really have an issue with snipers, maybe because I'm too busy blowing myself up with grenades to notice them? I dunno...

Either way, I find the wrong kind of snipers on my own team much more infuriating than those that kill me repeatedly. Death Snatch - nope, can't confirm, too far, busy sniping. Blitz - nope, cant get on point, need to defend from here. Jackhammer, I'll just stay here and snipe. With the team sizes it kinda kills a game when you get these "lone wolf uberpro" guys whose personal kill count means more than winning a game.

Grrrrr
Timeraider 22 juil 2013 à 10h11 
ok.. now its getting sad. Seriously 90% of people i see is wearing a sniper XD
cassus 22 juil 2013 à 12h16 
Stewzors a écrit :
I don't really have an issue with snipers, maybe because I'm too busy blowing myself up with grenades to notice them? I dunno...

Either way, I find the wrong kind of snipers on my own team much more infuriating than those that kill me repeatedly. Death Snatch - nope, can't confirm, too far, busy sniping. Blitz - nope, cant get on point, need to defend from here. Jackhammer, I'll just stay here and snipe. With the team sizes it kinda kills a game when you get these "lone wolf uberpro" guys whose personal kill count means more than winning a game.

Grrrrr

Yes, this point is well made. Tiny team games like this will always be subject to whatever everyone is doing. One guy being a sniping dildo means you'll have one man less on your team. One guy being uber skilled usually means that team wins (can't really "fix" that, though. That's just plain old "small teams easily being unbalanced" and that's just the way it is. Which is why I tend to favor large team games like TF2 or (back in the day) battlefield etc. But.. Loadout is just so god damn cool. I would love to see a 12v12++ style maps though. Would be less hardcore, and single players won't be able to ruin the fun for everyone involved. I think this game would scale really well also, it's practically a TF2 style multiplayer game (more akin to TF2 than other shooters, at least. The pace and feel of combat isn't close to fast enough to be called a typical quake style twitch shooter) and would work really well with large team objective based shenanigans. I would love to see something like that.
The Toast With the Most LLC 25 juil 2013 à 12h39 
I need a sniper barrel to produce my ideal railgun weapon, so I demand that at least the barrel stays.
EK | Eric 25 juil 2013 à 13h32 
The only reason you dislike the sniper is probally because you get owned with it to much.
A sniper doesn't ruin the match you just need to think a lot better and jump on the right time and right direction this way I managed to escape a lot of sniper bullets.
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