XiaoHuoZi Sep 30, 2013 @ 1:45am
Larry's Last breath of the humanity or First breath of the dead?
As Larry got his heart attack again in EP2 and fainted, it's hard to judge if he was dead or alive. If Lee did CPR on him 4 or 5 times, his mouth moved and then his head was splated by Kenny. Some people believe he could have a chance to live or he was dead already and turning.
Although his mouth moved when Lee did a CPR, Lily also did it on him before Lee's. Lily served military as a mechanic, she probably knew some emergency aid as she was a military personal. As she did CPR on him, he didnt come back.
During my first play, I sided with Kenny and killed Larry, cuz at that time I didnt forgive Larry for being ungrateful and almost made Lee killed in the drugstore. Luckily, Kenny came back for him.
I hate Larry anyway, but killing him like this... Should I feel regret or not?
Showing 1-15 of 28 comments
< >
freddiebox (SWE) Sep 30, 2013 @ 4:54am 
I sided with Kenny all the way except the Larry event. Killing someone without knowing he's dead or alive is just wrong. If I were you I'd feel bad over it. :P
Zap the Liar Sep 30, 2013 @ 2:38pm 
Originally posted by Sir Frederik ™:
I sided with Kenny all the way except the Larry event. Killing someone without knowing he's dead or alive is just wrong. If I were you I'd feel bad over it. :P
If you sided with Kenny all the way then that logic is flawed. Lily could be dead because of your actions or still alive, and possibly just die later for other reasons; but you don't know which one is the case. There was a pretty famous experiment done that basically states that she is both dead because of you, and not dead because of you at the same time. You don't know until you actually see+ what happened, so we may never know. Also, if your problem is with killing a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥/extreme detriment to the group who could possibly be dead, then why would you kill Ben? He was young and stupid, but he had a serious chance to live. At least Ben wouldn't do the same to you.


Anyways, back to the main discussion. Whether you should feel bad about it or not really goes from person to person. Remember all that ♥♥♥♥ Larry did in Epispde 1? For example, trying to kill Duck because he MIGHT be bitten? Well, it's pretty much the exact thing here, except it's a small child instead of a "6'4'' 200 lb. seriously ♥♥♥♥ed off dead guy", as Kenny put it. If you believe in revenge, then just think about what I said for a minute, and all guilt should fade (as mine did).+

If you aren't one for revenge, then think about the actual implications of this. As you said, Lily worked for a military base as an admin. She would most likely know the best method of/more tricks about CPR. She did it for much longer than you, and had nothing happen. Remember Samuel Jackson, the guy in the woods at the beginning of Ep. 2? Remember how quickly he turned and got back to full strength, even with a missing leg and having just bled out? No. Larry was dead. I didn't do it because I hate Lily/Larry, I did it because he was dead. The world turns to ♥♥♥♥ in the apocalypse, and sometimes, you have to do bad ♥♥♥♥ to make sure it doesn't hit the fan worse than it did.
Last edited by Zap the Liar; Sep 30, 2013 @ 2:43pm
CordedUberator Sep 30, 2013 @ 6:07pm 
Originally posted by -=GHS=- Zap the Liar:
Originally posted by Sir Frederik ™:
I sided with Kenny all the way except the Larry event. Killing someone without knowing he's dead or alive is just wrong. If I were you I'd feel bad over it. :P
If you sided with Kenny all the way then that logic is flawed. Lily could be dead because of your actions or still alive, and possibly just die later for other reasons; but you don't know which one is the case. There was a pretty famous experiment done that basically states that she is both dead because of you, and not dead because of you at the same time. You don't know until you actually see+ what happened, so we may never know. Also, if your problem is with killing a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥/extreme detriment to the group who could possibly be dead, then why would you kill Ben? He was young and stupid, but he had a serious chance to live. At least Ben wouldn't do the same to you.


Anyways, back to the main discussion. Whether you should feel bad about it or not really goes from person to person. Remember all that ♥♥♥♥ Larry did in Epispde 1? For example, trying to kill Duck because he MIGHT be bitten? Well, it's pretty much the exact thing here, except it's a small child instead of a "6'4'' 200 lb. seriously ♥♥♥♥ed off dead guy", as Kenny put it. If you believe in revenge, then just think about what I said for a minute, and all guilt should fade (as mine did).+

If you aren't one for revenge, then think about the actual implications of this. As you said, Lily worked for a military base as an admin. She would most likely know the best method of/more tricks about CPR. She did it for much longer than you, and had nothing happen. Remember Samuel Jackson, the guy in the woods at the beginning of Ep. 2? Remember how quickly he turned and got back to full strength, even with a missing leg and having just bled out? No. Larry was dead. I didn't do it because I hate Lily/Larry, I did it because he was dead. The world turns to ♥♥♥♥ in the apocalypse, and sometimes, you have to do bad ♥♥♥♥ to make sure it doesn't hit the fan worse than it did.

Yes, but couldn't you have compromised? You could have perfomed CPR with Kenny at the ready to drop it if it FOR SURE failed. As Lee said: You don't know that (he's dead). Besides, if you felt any guilt, then you know that you did something wrong. No matter how you rationalize it, you know that what you did was terrible on at least some level.
XiaoHuoZi Sep 30, 2013 @ 6:12pm 
Originally posted by CordedUberator:
Originally posted by -=GHS=- Zap the Liar:
If you sided with Kenny all the way then that logic is flawed. Lily could be dead because of your actions or still alive, and possibly just die later for other reasons; but you don't know which one is the case. There was a pretty famous experiment done that basically states that she is both dead because of you, and not dead because of you at the same time. You don't know until you actually see+ what happened, so we may never know. Also, if your problem is with killing a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥/extreme detriment to the group who could possibly be dead, then why would you kill Ben? He was young and stupid, but he had a serious chance to live. At least Ben wouldn't do the same to you.


Anyways, back to the main discussion. Whether you should feel bad about it or not really goes from person to person. Remember all that ♥♥♥♥ Larry did in Epispde 1? For example, trying to kill Duck because he MIGHT be bitten? Well, it's pretty much the exact thing here, except it's a small child instead of a "6'4'' 200 lb. seriously ♥♥♥♥ed off dead guy", as Kenny put it. If you believe in revenge, then just think about what I said for a minute, and all guilt should fade (as mine did).+

If you aren't one for revenge, then think about the actual implications of this. As you said, Lily worked for a military base as an admin. She would most likely know the best method of/more tricks about CPR. She did it for much longer than you, and had nothing happen. Remember Samuel Jackson, the guy in the woods at the beginning of Ep. 2? Remember how quickly he turned and got back to full strength, even with a missing leg and having just bled out? No. Larry was dead. I didn't do it because I hate Lily/Larry, I did it because he was dead. The world turns to ♥♥♥♥ in the apocalypse, and sometimes, you have to do bad ♥♥♥♥ to make sure it doesn't hit the fan worse than it did.

Yes, but couldn't you have compromised? You could have perfomed CPR with Kenny at the ready to drop it if it FOR SURE failed. As Lee said: You don't know that (he's dead). Besides, if you felt any guilt, then you know that you did something wrong. No matter how you rationalize it, you know that what you did was terrible on at least some level.
Before Lee did CPR, Lily also did one on him. And he didnt came back. Why Lilly couldnt do by herself? She should have know about First Aid since she was a military personal
CordedUberator Sep 30, 2013 @ 6:20pm 
That doesn't mean you can't at least TRY! You're rejecting any chance of him still being alive. Besides, as the title implies, he may or may not have taken a gasp of air. He might have been still alive. But we don't know for sure, nor will we know.

Besides, Lilly was a mechanical admin. For jets. That doesn't necessicarily mean she actually has been trained in first aid.
Zap the Liar Sep 30, 2013 @ 7:15pm 
Originally posted by CordedUberator:
Originally posted by -=GHS=- Zap the Liar:
If you sided with Kenny all the way then that logic is flawed. Lily could be dead because of your actions or still alive, and possibly just die later for other reasons; but you don't know which one is the case. There was a pretty famous experiment done that basically states that she is both dead because of you, and not dead because of you at the same time. You don't know until you actually see+ what happened, so we may never know. Also, if your problem is with killing a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥/extreme detriment to the group who could possibly be dead, then why would you kill Ben? He was young and stupid, but he had a serious chance to live. At least Ben wouldn't do the same to you.


Anyways, back to the main discussion. Whether you should feel bad about it or not really goes from person to person. Remember all that ♥♥♥♥ Larry did in Epispde 1? For example, trying to kill Duck because he MIGHT be bitten? Well, it's pretty much the exact thing here, except it's a small child instead of a "6'4'' 200 lb. seriously ♥♥♥♥ed off dead guy", as Kenny put it. If you believe in revenge, then just think about what I said for a minute, and all guilt should fade (as mine did).+

If you aren't one for revenge, then think about the actual implications of this. As you said, Lily worked for a military base as an admin. She would most likely know the best method of/more tricks about CPR. She did it for much longer than you, and had nothing happen. Remember Samuel Jackson, the guy in the woods at the beginning of Ep. 2? Remember how quickly he turned and got back to full strength, even with a missing leg and having just bled out? No. Larry was dead. I didn't do it because I hate Lily/Larry, I did it because he was dead. The world turns to ♥♥♥♥ in the apocalypse, and sometimes, you have to do bad ♥♥♥♥ to make sure it doesn't hit the fan worse than it did.

Yes, but couldn't you have compromised? You could have perfomed CPR with Kenny at the ready to drop it if it FOR SURE failed. As Lee said: You don't know that (he's dead). Besides, if you felt any guilt, then you know that you did something wrong. No matter how you rationalize it, you know that what you did was terrible on at least some level.
Yes, I thought about it like this a lot of my time when I had nothing to do but think. At the same time though, #videogamelogic. In real life, we would have done it differently, but as far as the game goes we have to choose.

Anyways, no, if he feels guilt it does not mean that what he did was wrong. Guilt has been scientifically proven as a feeling when two emotions conflict. For example, he could've been alive. Was I the one who killed him, and not his heart condition? No, he was dead. But was he? twhr8gr[uwhgsf[0uhw-0whgfsgf0eahfw0s... [b]Guilt Created

So no, he does not feel guilt because what he did was wrong (or terrible). He feels guilt because of those conflicting emotions, and that would be the natural thing to do. Hell, I absolutely hated Larry (and ALWAYS sided against him) yet I still felt guilt about what I did. If I hadn't been under the influence of Kenny, maybe I would've tried to save him. But he did present an idea, and an idea that is correct in my opinion, and I didn't want to let him down.

If he was for sure dead and we had to do it, I would still feel somewhat guilty. For example, let's take the good ending to Infamous 2. You kill the beast and cure the plague, saving millions. At the same time though, all the conduits die as a result of your actions. Sure, it was for the greater good, but you still feel guilt. Even Lee felt guilt about not being able to save both Carley and Doug at the end of Ep. 1

Originally posted by CordedUberator:
That doesn't mean you can't at least TRY! You're rejecting any chance of him still being alive. Besides, as the title implies, he may or may not have taken a gasp of air. He might have been still alive. But we don't know for sure, nor will we know.

Besides, Lilly was a mechanical admin. For jets. That doesn't necessicarily mean she actually has been trained in first aid.
It was still a military base; military personnel are required to know the basics like that. But no; there is a pretty big chance he's dead, and I'm not willing to take the risk of him being dead, and us just jump starting his transition. Besides, Larry was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥. It was revenge from Episode 1, and he was a detriment to the group. Not to mention how ironic his death was (in Episode 1, if you side with Larry, he talks about smashing Duck's head in).
Last edited by Zap the Liar; Sep 30, 2013 @ 7:38pm
CordedUberator Sep 30, 2013 @ 8:09pm 
Guilt is a result of our failure to completely justify our actions, be them on moral grounds or otherwise.

Anyways, I hated Larry too, but he's a human being. You don't murder a human being for revenge, nor do you kill them for what they "might do." You may kill in self-defense if the attack was unprovoked and there is no alternative. In this case, there were 2 potential alternatives, even though the game only *technically* offers you one.

Lastly, your analogy does not apply. In this case you're not choosing between who dies, but if this man dies. In your mention of Infamous 2, you have no choice, at least 1 person has to die either way. But in this scenario you are choosing between the life and death of someone. You either actively murder him, or actively save him (unless you do nothing, in which case, you passively murder him).

Anyways, I doubt that all soldiers in the military know EMT level of first aid. Learning to address a wound is one thing, learning to stop cardiac arrest is another. CPR doesn't stop heart attacks (which Larry did not have btw, but rather, heart failure), it allows the person to live long enough for paramedics to arrive. Given a little time, his heart might have been able to restart itself naturally.
Last edited by CordedUberator; Sep 30, 2013 @ 8:10pm
XiaoHuoZi Sep 30, 2013 @ 8:18pm 
It's funny that how Some people prefer saving that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Larry, but wishing Duck die. I have reasons to hate Larry, as for Duck. Just okay with him. Hating him, I feel like a monster.
Back to this topic, the way ending up Larry's life, just... I shouldnt do that but he could come back and kill everyone inside.
Think about EP1, he tried to kill us. And we all tried our best to buy some time for others to escape, and getting medicine for him. He still showed no appreciation.
If he didnt get his heart hurt in drugstore, Doug/Carley wouldnt have died during the raid.
CordedUberator Sep 30, 2013 @ 8:37pm 
Key word being *could*. You don't know what would've happened, yet you actively aided in his death?

Yes, he was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ for trying to leave you to die. But think of it this way: would you like to have a convicted murderer in your group? By your logic, Larry did the right thing because "He could've killed us."

Finally; his heart failed. You're going to hold that against him? It's his fault the alarm was tripped? Maybe you shouldn't have tripped that alarm, otherwise Carley/Doug would've lived. So really, the blood is on your hands. Or maybe it was just a truly unfortunate event that was out of anyone's control?
The Assassin Sep 30, 2013 @ 10:38pm 
Ultimately its a hard choice to make. The guilt is normal.

But based on how long it took for someone to die and change in the past, I'd wager that you could have given one more attempt at reviving Larry before having no choice but to bash his head in.

Here's the kicker - If you spent a bunch more time trying to save Larry (who appears very much dead) how much more time would you have left to escape and save the rest of the group? The more time you spend trying to save Larry the lower your chances are of saving the others.

So I pose the question:

If you wanted to keep trying to save Larry, would you wait until the last possible second and risk the lives of the other group members (both in and outside the room)? Or would you have only tried one more time before accepting he was dead?

Last edited by The Assassin; Sep 30, 2013 @ 10:39pm
CordedUberator Oct 1, 2013 @ 5:44am 
I would wait until the last possible second. If he started turning, he'd show obvious signs like the milky white eyes, then yes, it'd be kill or be killed. But I would not have Larry's blood on my hands then.

As for the less time, how the hell did you know Ben and Carly/Doug would show up? And how did you know that the others were necessicarily in trouble right then and there? That's a fallacious argument.

As for risking the lives of people in the room, it's not my, nor there place, to judge if this man dies or not. I'd risk my life if it meant I could save another. Besides, Kenny was still at the ready with the salt lick, so even if I'd get bitten, they would be able to defend themselves.
The Assassin Oct 1, 2013 @ 10:42am 
Originally posted by CordedUberator:
As for the less time, how the hell did you know Ben and Carly/Doug would show up? And how did you know that the others were necessicarily in trouble right then and there? That's a fallacious argument.

You wouldn't know, that's the point. I'm talking about Kenny's family. If I recall correctly it was heavily implied they were on their way to becoming a meal or worse. I'm not sure how you could have possibly thought that the others weren't in some sort of trouble; did you not pay attention to the previous scene? Or are you saying that if you were Kenny (or possibly Lee) you would not be even slightly concerned that your family was being man handled by cannibals?

What do you think would have happened if Kenny Lee and Lily didn't escape when they did? Ben and Carly/Doug would be in a similar position to the rest of the group when they started out; being utterly clueless as to what this twisted family was really doing. The two of them fighting the family upon discovering the truth without the others would be the worst solution as they would be outnumbered and likely outgunned.

Larry's death was never on anyone's hands, the mans heart failed. People get old and organs fail, it is the natural way of things. I would have given him one last chance, and if he stayed dead its far too risky. There comes a point where you have to consider more than just one person's life in a group.

Originally posted by CordedUberator:
As for risking the lives of people in the room, it's not my, nor there place, to judge if this man dies or not. I'd risk my life if it meant I could save another. Besides, Kenny was still at the ready with the salt lick, so even if I'd get bitten, they would be able to defend themselves.

Saving people is good. Trying to save people who cannot be saved is bad. If you had gotten bitten trying to save a dead Larry, you affect the rest of the group. That would put the group in ultimately more danger, reduce its numbers, and remove one of the few rational characters of the group. I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny and Lily got into a fight or shootout if Lee died in that room with Larry.

It doesn't seem like the risk would be worth it.

Last edited by The Assassin; Oct 1, 2013 @ 10:43am
CordedUberator Oct 1, 2013 @ 11:02am 
You ignored my point. If Lee doesn't know that Ben and friend are there, then that's not a concern at the moment. As for Kenny's family, I don't think a minute or even less would make much of a difference, Kat was only taken hostage once the mother got concerned about her sons' lack of response/Lee's presence. Kenny finds Duck on his own, so that time difference doesn't matter. The meal you mentioned were the brothers deciding who in the meatlocker they would keep to eat, and kill everyone else.

Ben and friend (just gonna write that as shorthand), also knew something was up, that's why they came back and didn't take the main path.

And Larry's death was on Kenny's/your hands, as because of you/Kenny, we don't know for sure if he was actually dead. If there was no doubt, then why did you make this thread?

Lastly, if you get bitten, there's still plenty of time before you turn, as we see later on. I doubt they would have had a shoot-out, yelling, yes.

As for you final comment: How much value are you putting on a human life?
Last edited by CordedUberator; Oct 1, 2013 @ 11:02am
The Assassin Oct 1, 2013 @ 12:01pm 
Originally posted by CordedUberator:
You ignored my point. If Lee doesn't know that Ben and friend are there, then that's not a concern at the moment. As for Kenny's family, I don't think a minute or even less would make much of a difference, Kat was only taken hostage once the mother got concerned about her sons' lack of response/Lee's presence. Kenny finds Duck on his own, so that time difference doesn't matter.

There is ultimately no way to know where the family members would have been had more time passed. When time passes in the locker, time passes everywhere else as well; its not in its own space-time bubble. You can't assume that they would be in the same locations they were when we actually found them, can you? A minute might not sound like a long time, but you can certainly travel to a different spot on that property within a minute. Hell Lee can travel from the edge of the fence to the barn in that time easily and he was walking at a fairly slow pace.

Originally posted by CordedUberator:
And Larry's death was on Kenny's/your hands, as because of you/Kenny, we don't know for sure if he was actually dead. If there was no doubt, then why did you make this thread?

Well for starters, I didn't create the thread. So lets get that out there.

Secondly, I didn't cause Larry's death. Larry had a heart condition, and his heart failed. Kenny nor Lee caused Larry's heart to fail. No one was able to properly revive him, he showed no reasonable response. You were stuck in a room with zero medical supplies, had zero medicine, and clearly no one had the proper medical training.

That'd be like blaming someone for giving his friend deadly skin cancer for bringing him to the beach on sunny days. That car drive to the beach certainly didn't kill him, and he certainly didn't give him the cancer himself. And what exactly was that friend supposed to do, find all the cancerous cells in his body and pull them out?

I actually initially sided with Lily during the incident, and shocked that Kenny reacted as he did. But the logic all adds up. You could have tried a hundred thousand times to save Larry, the situation was out of anyone's hands. People get sent to hospitals via ambulances for that kind of thing, not meat lockers.

Originally posted by CordedUberator:
As for you final comment: How much value are you putting on a human life?

There is no value for a human life, it has worth beyond a 'value'. It's priceless, it cannot be replicated, nor replaced.

I think the question is how much value are you putting on a dead body?

Lets go by hospital standards here...

If the man is not breathing, and there is no pulse, and there is evidence that the brain is not functioning, the man is considered dead. While they didn't have hospital equipment, consider this:

Larry was not Breathing
Larry's heart had stopped, so there was no pulse
Larry did not appear to react to any neurological stimuli; the man had his chest beaten on by his daughter (part of testing stimuli is creating pain for a reaction). A pen light would have likely further confirmed no reaction of his pupils.

Larry showed all the criteria matching Death.


CordedUberator Oct 1, 2013 @ 12:31pm 
Originally posted by The Assassin:
Originally posted by CordedUberator:
You ignored my point. If Lee doesn't know that Ben and friend are there, then that's not a concern at the moment. As for Kenny's family, I don't think a minute or even less would make much of a difference, Kat was only taken hostage once the mother got concerned about her sons' lack of response/Lee's presence. Kenny finds Duck on his own, so that time difference doesn't matter.

There is ultimately no way to know where the family members would have been had more time passed. When time passes in the locker, time passes everywhere else as well; its not in its own space-time bubble. You can't assume that they would be in the same locations they were when we actually found them, can you? A minute might not sound like a long time, but you can certainly travel to a different spot on that property within a minute. Hell Lee can travel from the edge of the fence to the barn in that time easily and he was walking at a fairly slow pace.

Originally posted by CordedUberator:
And Larry's death was on Kenny's/your hands, as because of you/Kenny, we don't know for sure if he was actually dead. If there was no doubt, then why did you make this thread?

Well for starters, I didn't create the thread. So lets get that out there.

Secondly, I didn't cause Larry's death. Larry had a heart condition, and his heart failed. Kenny nor Lee caused Larry's heart to fail. No one was able to properly revive him, he showed no reasonable response. You were stuck in a room with zero medical supplies, had zero medicine, and clearly no one had the proper medical training.

That'd be like blaming someone for giving his friend deadly skin cancer for bringing him to the beach on sunny days. That car drive to the beach certainly didn't kill him, and he certainly didn't give him the cancer himself. And what exactly was that friend supposed to do, find all the cancerous cells in his body and pull them out?

I actually initially sided with Lily during the incident, and shocked that Kenny reacted as he did. But the logic all adds up. You could have tried a hundred thousand times to save Larry, the situation was out of anyone's hands. People get sent to hospitals via ambulances for that kind of thing, not meat lockers.

Originally posted by CordedUberator:
As for you final comment: How much value are you putting on a human life?

There is no value for a human life, it has worth beyond a 'value'. It's priceless, it cannot be replicated, nor replaced.

I think the question is how much value are you putting on a dead body?

Lets go by hospital standards here...

If the man is not breathing, and there is no pulse, and there is evidence that the brain is not functioning, the man is considered dead. While they didn't have hospital equipment, consider this:

Larry was not Breathing
Larry's heart had stopped, so there was no pulse
Larry did not appear to react to any neurological stimuli; the man had his chest beaten on by his daughter (part of testing stimuli is creating pain for a reaction). A pen light would have likely further confirmed no reaction of his pupils.

Larry showed all the criteria matching Death.

:spy:

Thank you for making a strawman of my entire first paragraph. I never said "time stops." as you think I did. I said that Brenda only became desperate and immediately threatening to Katjaa AFTER you escape. Duck was being held hostage by one of the brothers as he patrolled the farm. A minute would have only changed his location along the perimeter of the farm, at most.

My mistake about the thread, I had not noticed I had stopped arguing with the author and instead someone else.

As for causing his death, you ENSURED he had no chance to survive. Your analogy is flawed because in this case, you actively and physically destroyed Larry's body. Sure, it might have been fruitless to try. But we don't know what would've happened because Kenny made sure there was no chance.

Lastly, as has been pointed out, Larry moves his mouth immediately before being super-head shotted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOkUjF_6pRI

It might've been a breath, it might have been nothing, it might have been him turning into a walker. but at least 1/3 of those possibilities involves him still being alive. A 1/3 chance of him being alive is enough for me to try.
Last edited by CordedUberator; Oct 1, 2013 @ 12:32pm
Showing 1-15 of 28 comments
< >
Per page: 15 30 50