Locklave Mar 17, 2013 @ 5:17pm
Side stepping combat sucks
Anyone else feel like it makes combat tedious? I hear people say it takes skill but after doing it like 100+ times its just annoying as hell.
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Scorpiuscat Mar 17, 2013 @ 7:50pm 
I have no problems with it, besides, there are other combat methods you can use as well.

I just find the game a ton of fun and a nice break from the usual.
Locklave Mar 18, 2013 @ 6:12am 
Those methods don't work on higher settings, basically side step or be killed.

Dodge>Armor being what I think is a huge imbalance. It just feels like all these unique character features and abilities are overshadowed by Sidestepping and Dodge builds.

Don't you feel restricted when making a character on higher settings? Feels like only one build works to me.
Dr.Disaster Mar 18, 2013 @ 7:12am 
Originally posted by Locklave:
Dodge>Armor being what I think is a huge imbalance. It just feels like all these unique character features and abilities are overshadowed by Sidestepping and Dodge builds.
There is no imbalance. While all Armor can do is reducing your damage taken Dodge prevents you from taking damage at all.
Locklave Mar 18, 2013 @ 10:45am 
A maxed out dodge character has far more survivability then a maxed out armor character, it's been tested playing on max difficulty. You can't max out both so it's one or the other. Huge dodge rates can be achieved via Unarmed combat/Evasion builds with maxed dex while at the same time providing sizeable damage increases.

1. Unarmed combat benefiting both dodge and damage.
2. Base stat Dex influencing Dodge
3. Evasion skill

Thats one damage skill, one defensive skill and a raw stat that can increase. All those stacking into dodge. Armor can at no point compete nor provide enough damaged reduction to equal out the builds. Rogue Lizard Dodge tanks> all others.

Do I even need to point out clothing that increase dodge that have no armor value? Cause we needed 4 ways to build dodge.

For Armor it's armor itself and the skill, thats it. Dodge's advantage over armor becomes obvious by level 3 of the dungeon.
Dr.Disaster Mar 18, 2013 @ 1:46pm 
It's the nature of things that the best protection against damage is not taking any. How to achieve it - be it skills items or combat movement - is up to you.
Locklave Mar 18, 2013 @ 6:54pm 
Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
It's the nature of things that the best protection against damage is not taking any. How to achieve it - be it skills items or combat movement - is up to you.

You just invalidated your first post. 1 good option dodging vs 1 bad option armor isn't balance.

Hence limited options. So its Sidestep/dodge or Sidestep/suck.
Dr.Disaster Mar 19, 2013 @ 8:12am 
Originally posted by Locklave:
Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
It's the nature of things that the best protection against damage is not taking any. How to achieve it - be it skills items or combat movement - is up to you.

You just invalidated your first post. 1 good option dodging vs 1 bad option armor isn't balance.

Hence limited options. So its Sidestep/dodge or Sidestep/suck.
It seems that you still did not grab my point at all. It does not matter how much one invests in either Dodge or Armor. Both are only additional protection compare to the players ability to move thru the game. LoG can even be beaten without going for Dodge or Armor at all(!) as long as the player is agile enough to evade incoming attacks.

Some may find sidestep-to-win boring what's your point in the first post. Now against 1 monster that may be true. Yet there are a lot of occations in both the original and well designed custom dungeons where simple sidesteps don't win the fight.
Locklave Mar 19, 2013 @ 12:32pm 
Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
It seems that you still did not grab my point at all. It does not matter how much one invests in either Dodge or Armor. Both are only additional protection compare to the players ability to move thru the game. LoG can even be beaten without going for Dodge or Armor at all(!) as long as the player is agile enough to evade incoming attacks.

Some may find sidestep-to-win boring what's your point in the first post. Now against 1 monster that may be true. Yet there are a lot of occations in both the original and well designed custom dungeons where simple sidesteps don't win the fight.

You can't and I mean can't finish this game without side stepping on the hardest settings. The last boss is an over the top example of this. So side stepping is forced on players way too much. Please explain why if no secondary protection is needed that the builk of front liner builds include secondary protection? Thats a retorical question, they are needed as just because its possible to go without doesn't mean its optimal or enjoyable. I'm not argueing every possible scenerio.

As for the point of my first post. Do you mean my OP or the one about imbalance? If you don't see the point of my OP then I can't help you as it's clear as light.

If you meant my second post then its as follows, to complete this game on the hardest setting its dodge and side stepping only. You can dodge tank if you get trapped and win in most cases, if you choose armor and you get trapped you die.

So basically you can win in a throw down using dodge when you'd lose using armor. Which is why I don't understand you saying its balanced. Being additional protections does not make them balanced as they are not, I might go so far as calling dodge over powered.

Dr.Disaster Mar 19, 2013 @ 2:02pm 
Originally posted by Locklave:
You can't and I mean can't finish this game without side stepping on the hardest settings. The last boss is an over the top example of this. So side stepping is forced on players way too much.
In a grid-based game melee combat has only 2 options: tank or evade.

Originally posted by Locklave:
Please explain why if no secondary protection is needed that the builk of front liner builds include secondary protection?
Why? Because 2 out of 3 available classes have such skills.

Originally posted by Locklave:
Thats a retorical question, they are needed as just because its possible to go without doesn't mean its optimal or enjoyable. I'm not argueing every possible scenerio.
It's not a rethorical question. Dodge/Armor are in fact not needed. Try it. I did. Went weapon skills 100%, nothing else. Works like a charm.

Choosing melee fighters/rogues in the front line is classic but neither needed nor enforced. You can play LoG with a pure ranged party, no need for Dodge/Armor skills at all.

Originally posted by Locklave:
As for the point of my first post. Do you mean my OP or the one about imbalance? If you don't see the point of my OP then I can't help you as it's clear as light.
When i reply to something i quote it so it's pretty clear what i'm refering to.

Originally posted by Locklave:
So basically you can win inwn using dodge when you'd lose using armor. Which is why I don't understand you saying its balanced. Being additional protections does not make them balanced as they are not, I might go so far as calling dodge over powered.
I agree as far as that it is easier to build up evasion stat then protection stat. Evasion can be build with dex and skills alone while protection requires items and skills.
Locklave Mar 19, 2013 @ 3:11pm 
Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
...what's your point in the first post.


Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
When i reply to something i quote it so it's pretty clear what i'm refering to.

I made this thread so thats my first post. Your first reply was to my second post. So it's clear as mud.

If you agree Dodge is better then why are you knowingly making false statements about balance directly relating to that point?

Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
Originally posted by Locklave:
Dodge>Armor being what I think is a huge imbalance. It just feels like all these unique character features and abilities are overshadowed by Sidestepping and Dodge builds.
There is no imbalance. While all Armor can do is reducing your damage taken Dodge prevents you from taking damage at all.

Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
I agree as far as that it is easier to build up evasion stat then protection stat. Evasion can be build with dex and skills alone while protection requires items and skills.

So you agree but you insist on being difficult about it for no reason.
Dr.Disaster Mar 19, 2013 @ 3:29pm 
Originally posted by Locklave:
If you agree Dodge is better then why are you knowingly making false statements about balance directly relating to that point?

Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
There is no imbalance. While all Armor can do is reducing your damage taken Dodge prevents you from taking damage at all.

Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
I agree as far as that it is easier to build up evasion stat then protection stat. Evasion can be build with dex and skills alone while protection requires items and skills.

So you agree but you insist on being difficult about it for no reason.
Your point: Dodge > Armor and without Dodge the game can't be won.

My point: Dodge <> Armor and both are optional to win the game.

It is impossible to build up both to get anywhere near complete safety. When you last longer with Dodge then Armor your were able to raise Evasion better then Protection and when you last longer with Armor then Dodge it's the other way round, i.e. no reachable Evasion value can prevent one-hit-kills which Protection can. I've experienced all those situations in LoG so i keep my point: there is no imbalance.
Zech Mar 19, 2013 @ 11:09pm 
Kinda wished they would have added a different bonus to shields to negate/reflect dmg (by chance with increased armor) instead of evasion, would have make a tank class more viable.

Also there are some situations in the game where you will not be able to side step in the room until you finish off some monsters.
Last edited by Zech; Mar 19, 2013 @ 11:10pm
Locklave Mar 20, 2013 @ 5:00pm 
Originally posted by Dr.Disaster:
Your point: Dodge > Armor and without Dodge the game can't be won.

My point: Dodge <> Armor and both are optional to win the game.

It is impossible to build up both to get anywhere near complete safety. When you last longer with Dodge then Armor your were able to raise Evasion better then Protection and when you last longer with Armor then Dodge it's the other way round, i.e. no reachable Evasion value can prevent one-hit-kills which Protection can. I've experienced all those situations in LoG so i keep my point: there is no imbalance.

Please quote where I said the game can't be won without dodge. I didn't say it anywhere. So try argueing existing points and not imaginary ones.

Dodge is as even you admitted easier to build then armor, and its results are greater. Hence Dodge>Armor. You can't acknowledge that point then argue Dodge=Armor. Perhaps you should look up the definition of balance before travelling this path, because they are not equal or balanced when directly compared.

I don't believe you've ever attempted a serious dodge build if you think it provides equal protection and equal overall survival then armor. Because this is simply not the case. Do I even need to get into the Extra Weight of armor? Because it didn't already suck compared to Dodge builds.

edit:
It's possible to complete the game using no weapons, no armor, no skills but that doesn't mean everything is balanced. What it means is side stepping is a stupid gimick that devalues the lion's share of the games content.
Last edited by Locklave; Mar 20, 2013 @ 5:08pm
Locklave Mar 20, 2013 @ 5:06pm 
Originally posted by Munsu:
Kinda wished they would have added a different bonus to shields to negate/reflect dmg (by chance with increased armor) instead of evasion, would have make a tank class more viable.

Also there are some situations in the game where you will not be able to side step in the room until you finish off some monsters.

Ya this is an example of it with shields. They should have been Armor and/or Negate/parry/reflect tools. Instead its another Evasion item.
Dr.Disaster Mar 20, 2013 @ 5:28pm 
Originally posted by Locklave:
I don't believe you've ever attempted a serious dodge build if you think it provides equal protection and equal overall survival then armor. Because this is simply not the case.
That is exactly what i said in my last post, so what?

Originally posted by Locklave:
It's possible to complete the game using no weapons, no armor, no skills but that doesn't mean everything is balanced. What it means is side stepping is a stupid gimick that devalues the lion's share of the games content.
It has been proven on the AH Grimrock forum that the game can be completed with one level 1 character.

Since 25+ years any grid-based real-time game makes use of side-steping in combat. If you don't like that don't play games like LoG.
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Date Posted: Mar 17, 2013 @ 5:17pm
Posts: 20