SpeedRunners > General Discussions > Topic Details
Live by foma Oct 4, 2013 @ 4:55pm
Competition-breaking strategy? (i.e. snaking)
I'm not 100% sure about this, and I don't want to bring it up since it seems like I'm the only one who uses it (that I've noticed), but everyone's gonna figure it out eventually...

I THINK I found a strategy/exploit that, when used against players who don't know how to do it, leaves absolutely no chance for them. I just call it "boost-jumping". Like the name implies, you just boost for a second and then jump. The sliver of boost you used puts you at full speed, and then jumping lets you retain that speed through mid-air momentum, so if you do this repeatedly, you can travel huge distances at max speed using very little boost. I've noticed I can get an insane amount of max-speed time by conserving my boost this way, and leave most players in the dust. Some maps, like SS Royale, you can attain max-speed for most of the map.

It's kind of like snaking was in Mario Kart DS. Players who don't do it stand no chance against those who do. I've only been playing a few days, so I might just be misunderstanding a mechanic somewhere, but as long as you retain your max speed in mid-air, boosting can be exploited like that.

The only fixes I can think is to either make you lose speed in mid-air, which would be counteractive to the grappling game, or to make boost acceleration to full-speed much longer so that players gotta use significant boost to reach max speed, which would make standard ground boosting way less effective.

EDIT: A third fix would be changing the boost mechanics to uses rather than a meter. Players use a boost and they gain the acceleration for a short period of time. This way, players choose tactically when to use their limited uses, they can get more by running through the gates, and they can't "ration" the boost meter to exploit the strategy I detailed above. With a few uses (three maybe?), players still have the choice to pop all of them back to back, similar to how some players choose to use the full meter at once, or they can use them sparingly like some players currently do with their meter. I think this is less game-changing than the other two suggestions, I think it would mostly keep current strategies intact while eliminating the exploit.
Last edited by Live by foma; Oct 4, 2013 @ 5:05pm
Showing 1-15 of 185 comments
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Lay_Z Oct 4, 2013 @ 5:30pm 
Play some more. Lots of players are going this LOL
Live by foma Oct 4, 2013 @ 5:33pm 
Originally posted by Lay_Z:
Play some more. Lots of players are going this LOL

You don't think it's a problem that needs fixing, though?
Gnynt Oct 4, 2013 @ 5:53pm 
Originally posted by Live by foma:
Originally posted by Lay_Z:
Play some more. Lots of players are going this LOL

You don't think it's a problem that needs fixing, though?
Its a choice for the develoupers. Do they want a bunch people continuously jumping to prolong thier boost much longer than was intended? I Think the best fix for this would be that if you jump while boosting, your then commited to draining your boost meter tell you touch the ground. This should not break Grappling or result in slowing down the acceleration that helps provide the sence of speed, But still provides an advantage to people who can pay enough attention to their meter and jump right before it wears off, Thus limiting but still providing an advantage for doing so. The limited charge System seems decent enough, but in the games that do utilize this, they almost never have an indicator of when the boost you used has stopped.
Lay_Z Oct 4, 2013 @ 6:00pm 
I played the Xbox version. It wasn't in there. This is a choice for the game engine.

You do the same thing without boost using height. This is really old news.
Last edited by Lay_Z; Oct 4, 2013 @ 6:01pm
Casper van Est  [developer] Oct 5, 2013 @ 1:22am 
Yeah this is definitely an issue that we're going to fix, asap..
SpikeFoxyYoshi Oct 5, 2013 @ 3:59am 
Originally posted by Casper van Est:
Yeah this is definitely an issue that we're going to fix, asap..

No plz, I know Boost-jumping is a little unfair for new players but if they learn the same technic, Racing against these type of players is fun and hectic as hell. players have to management the boost in order to win against eachother, it is more fun. If you fix this, The most players who did boost-jumping, will quite the game and you get forum posts for what the hell you guys did.
Last edited by SpikeFoxyYoshi; Oct 5, 2013 @ 3:59am
SpikeFoxyYoshi Oct 5, 2013 @ 4:06am 
You know if more players learn this technic it wiil not be a problem...
Knall Oct 5, 2013 @ 4:11am 
Totally agree with OmegaFox. Boostjumping is not about exploiting. It requires skills to use effectively. When, where etc. Taking it away shows bad judgement. SPEED IS THE REASON THIS GAME IS FUN! You wanna go as fast as you can as often as you can. Sure it takes a while to master, but isnt that the whole point? Take it away and you loose the best players for sure.
BradPhusion~ Oct 5, 2013 @ 4:25am 
I think Boost-Jumping is the equivilent of Strafe Jumping in older FPSs. Whilst newer people don't tend to use it as often, it's a handy thing to learn, and can prove to be a competition when multiple people use this technique. Strafe jumping was never considered an exploit, but instead, a technique to master.

In Speedrunners, I found myself learning this boost-jump without even thinking about it, and I'm sure other plays will too. I personally don't feel this needs to be removed. Sure, I might get my ♥♥♥ kicked from time to time by people who use this, but that just gives me more drive to improve myself and my abilities.
DesertOfSand Oct 5, 2013 @ 4:40am 
There has to be a line, though, between having skill-based gameplay and still having the game feel accessible to newer players. Especially in a game like this, where the appeal is more to have fun with 3 of your friends in a casual race, techniques like this that aren't intuitive can really kill the fun for a lot of a target audience.

I wouldn't be against the devs adding more skill-oriented gameplay, but they should be smart about it and keep it intuitive, like they've done so far.
As it is right now, the most skill-based aspect is learning the courses and their paths and shortcuts, as well as perfecting the timing for the actual platforming. This can get pretty intense for newer players, but having items equalizes the field somewhat for them, and having it be a First-To-Three to win means that even on their first run they can get to know a course and practice it quite a bit.
The somewhat less intuitive things, like Crate > Rockets or Slide > Hook, still make a lot of sense and are told in various tooltips during the loading screens.

You also have to take into account how much of an advantage a particular skill gives a player.
Knowing when to use the grappling hook to swing up into a wall-to-wall walljump area like near the end of the SS race and sparing you a walljump, preserving some of your speed, definitely gives an advantage, but this technique is very easily telegraphed on the map once you know to look for it, is very easy to understand and then copy, and only gives a very minor advantage to the user.
Meanwhile, a snaking technique like this could very well end up giving so much advantage to the user that not using it might guarantee a loss, all the while not being all that easily understood right off the bat.

So I mean I understand where you're coming from, Knall, but if the devs want to make the game more skill-oriented while still keeping it open to a broad audience, I can imagine there are much better ways for them to do that than to leave in boost-jumping.

EDIT: As for the comparison to bunny hopping, I'd argue that it's not quite the same. The entire point of Speed Runners is to race, and so speed can be directly related to victory. In an FPS, on the other hand, while speed is useful for many aspects of the game, reaction time and accuracy are what really grant you victory. I'd say a closer comparison would be to the old Pistol mechanics in Team Fortress 2, where the Pistol's fire rate was pretty much only limited by click speed. Users then would make scripts that would fire the Pistol at maximum speed when the mouse button was held down, firing the gun at speeds nearly impossible to reach manually.
In this case, the dev's couldn't force users to not use scripts, so they were left with either just leaving it alone and letting the more casual players learn to use scripts eventually or rebalancing the gun. They ended up rebalancing the gun, making it fire as fast as possible when the button is held down by default.
But I mean can you kind of see why just leaving something like that alone would be detrimental to the game, whereas bunny hopping isn't necessarily a huge problem?
Last edited by DesertOfSand; Oct 5, 2013 @ 4:51am
Jackayl Oct 5, 2013 @ 5:06am 
Boost-jumping isn't skillful... All you do is use a little boost and jump twice. Anyone can do it, if they know about it.

Of course it's fun because it gives you the advantage, but it's not fair. It needs to go.
Lay_Z Oct 5, 2013 @ 5:10am 
Originally posted by Casper van Est:
Yeah this is definitely an issue that we're going to fix, asap..

If that was not intended, I understand that the devs would like to take it out, but I'm not sure what that includes.

There are some areas where falling from heights gives players a small boost (or in some cases, the momentum to make some of the more difficult jumps that are not possible otherwise). Is this meant to be taken out too?
Last edited by Lay_Z; Oct 5, 2013 @ 5:11am
Lay_Z Oct 5, 2013 @ 5:17am 
Originally posted by DesertOfSand:
There has to be a line, though, between having skill-based gameplay and still having the game feel accessible to newer players. Especially in a game like this, where the appeal is more to have fun with 3 of your friends in a casual race, techniques like this that aren't intuitive can really kill the fun for a lot of a target audience.

I wouldn't be against the devs adding more skill-oriented gameplay, but they should be smart about it and keep it intuitive, like they've done so far.
As it is right now, the most skill-based aspect is learning the courses and their paths and shortcuts, as well as perfecting the timing for the actual platforming. This can get pretty intense for newer players, but having items equalizes the field somewhat for them, and having it be a First-To-Three to win means that even on their first run they can get to know a course and practice it quite a bit.

Lots of people have quit when I play because they do not use items in the optimal ways, realize you can dodge rockets/hooks, take different routes, etc. This is a casual game but there's a huge gap between a so-called skilled player and someone who has not adjusted to the platforming techniques of this game engine. Items can assist but they do not make up for that gap.

I have no clue why people want to downplay that this game does take some level of skill.
Last edited by Lay_Z; Oct 5, 2013 @ 5:17am
DesertOfSand Oct 5, 2013 @ 5:32am 
Originally posted by Lay_Z:
Lots of people have quit when I play because they do not use items in the optimal ways, realize you can dodge rockets/hooks, take different routes, etc. This is a casual game but there's a huge gap between a so-called skilled player and someone who has not adjusted to the platforming techniques of this game engine. Items can assist but they do not make up for that gap.

I have no clue why people want to downplay that this game does take some level of skill.

Which is why I say that items make up for differences in skill somewhat, not entirely.
Of course increased skills results in increased performence, but things like routes, item usage, and platforming skills are all easily understandable right away, easy to learn and emulate, and, while still being powerful, don't leave newer players feeling like they were absolutely crushed, which is what makes them well designed (compared to boost jumping, which lacks this transparency).

I don't know how you could've missed it in what boils down to a 500 word love letter to well-designed skill-based gameplay, but my post did pretty much everything but downplay that Speed Runners requires skill.
Knall Oct 5, 2013 @ 6:25am 
Wow, this really takes peoples attention. :D In time beginners will be paired with beginners, and so on. What I like with this game is to get better all the time. I love it when people beat me, cause then I can learn from them and get better. :)
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Date Posted: Oct 4, 2013 @ 4:55pm
Posts: 185