Crusader Kings II

Crusader Kings II

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James the Fair May 12, 2014 @ 9:05am
Raiding problems
I am currently trying out and playing as a tengri pagan in the middle of the Steppes who is surrounded by other tengri pagans and I would like to raid a nearby county who is not of my religion. The problem I find on this game is that you can only raid your next door neighbours who is not of your religion to earn the gold and not earning gold from counties who do not border you.

But I think I should least be able to cross other rulers lands peacefully who share the same religion as me, so I can raid these rulers who do not share the same religion but border those rulers of the same religion as me.

Does anyone have any ideas or tips to help me raid from my awkward position?
Last edited by James the Fair; May 12, 2014 @ 9:07am
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Showing 1-15 of 20 comments
Deep Hurting May 12, 2014 @ 9:52am 
Yes. You can only raid along borders, although you can still burn holdings (and take captives) further away, so you need to expand (use your once-in-a-lifetime subjugation war carefully) to the point where you border a "civilized" kingdom. Unfortunately, most of the kingdoms bordering the steppe, at least in 867, have huge numbers of troops, at least to start with, so raiding can be quite hazardous anyway. Going after the Samanids (Sultanate of Khiva) is possibly your best bet, as they're often distracted fighting their Zoroastrian neighbours.
James the Fair May 12, 2014 @ 10:43am 
So the only way I can raid for loot is by expanding out my borders to another ruler of a different religion? but the problem is that I very little in military (a few hundred at most) which also means I don't hardly have enough troops to besiege a holding. Also I don't hardly have any gold to go on, which also means I can't afford the hire and upkeep of mercenaries to wage a serious war either.

Although on another pagan file of mine, playing as the Kingdom of Cumania. I did manage to burn a few holdings and took a few captives several counties away from my own kingdom. But while I looted the gold outside of the enemy holdings, it did'nt seem to add to my gold stockpile.

Overall, I think more work needs doing when it comes to their raiding system, such as the ability to raid much further out by passing through other kingdoms with the same religion, with no loss of losing troops going through their "neutral" territory. Then when reaching the target county, which is next door to another kingdom with the same religion, could loot the county like as if its a neighbouring county. This I thought, could help you target the more vulnerable targets elsewhere, and I would love to see the AI do this as well.

Last edited by James the Fair; May 12, 2014 @ 11:10am
Deep Hurting May 12, 2014 @ 12:09pm 
Originally posted by James the Fair:
So the only way I can raid for loot is by expanding out my borders to another ruler of a different religion? but the problem is that I very little in military (a few hundred at most) which also means I don't hardly have enough troops to besiege a holding. Also I don't hardly have any gold to go on, which also means I can't afford the hire and upkeep of mercenaries to wage a serious war either.

I'm guessing you're probably playing as the Khirgiz, who generally don't survive more than a few years in the hands of the AI due to the enormous power of other cultures like the Cumans and Pechenegs. Expecting raiding to completely turn this around is perhaps a bit much.. it might be more fun to just roll with one of the other steppe cultures which has slightly more ability to expand.

I'm not sure long-range raiding really works for Tengri. It makes sense for the norse, who had organized raiding expeditions, but for nomadic cultures just raiding along borders probably makes more sense.
James the Fair May 12, 2014 @ 6:36pm 
I've just checked the save and I have found out i'm playing as the Karluks, who are to south of the culture you mentioned, but I often like to start in difficult positions. However I agree with your point about the norse having more organised raiding expeditions of where they could possibly cross other "neutral" kingdoms of the same religion.

Perhaps the long range raiding idea for the Tengri may not be the right style for them, especially when crossing neutral territories. However, I do think though when playing as the Karluks, and then should I decide to swear fealty to the Kingdom of Cumania, I should at least be able to raid and loot neighbouring territories that border the kingdom to the south and west since I am only crossing counties that are within the kingdom I am in.
Last edited by James the Fair; May 12, 2014 @ 6:36pm
Kupferdrache May 15, 2014 @ 8:23am 
al long as you are not independent the top liege borders are relevant for raiding other than that you can't raid until you border to some who is raidable.
Last edited by Kupferdrache; May 15, 2014 @ 8:24am
James the Fair May 17, 2014 @ 5:24am 
I don't think it's possible to raid the loot that is not protected by the holdings as i've noticed that loot is not being added to my treasury, unless one of my own counties borders the one i'm raiding.

Also I would like to see the AI (computer) vassals improved of where they can cross other friendly vassals within their own kingdom to find somebody to raid.
Langkard May 17, 2014 @ 4:07pm 
I tried playing as the Kirghiz a while back. It was difficult, but probably easier than the Zhetysu/Karluks. The Zhetysu have no option for raiding other than to go after the Samanids and that is suicide. Take the Kirghiz and then you can raid north taking on Yugra and Perm, because they are Suomenusko. That is also the safest path of expansion. Avoid getting into it with the Samanids. They'll destroy you. They're stronger, richer and more advanced. The Cumans are too large to go after early. Wait for them to get into it with the Yagbuids or the Khazars and carefully pick off the eastern bits of Cumania. Try to leave the Yagbuids alone at first because they make a nice buffer against the Persians and Karen. As you expand north, you can continue raiding the Suomenusko groups and pick off the remaining Cumans, then work on the Bolghars, Pechenegs and Khazars. You'll need a lot of steppe counties in your control before you can take on the Persians or the groups further west. It's a long slow slog through the steppes until you're large enough to be able to afford building up your holdings and tech. Just about the time you're feeling comfortable and maybe thinking about taking on the Safarids or the Abbasids or even the Byzantines, the Mongols show up and destroy your dreams of glory.
Jormundgand May 17, 2014 @ 4:25pm 
Rules of raiding:
  • You must have a border with the county you're raiding if you want any of the money
  • If you're norse, you can have ships in a river or ocean tile, bordering the county you're raiding. It will pick up the money and when you cash in, you also get a prestige boost.
  • Any raiding wil only pick up unprotected loot.
  • The speed by which you raid, depend on the number of raiders.

You can reduce the level of protection by sacking a holding; when it's done, you will get a massive cash bonus, have a chance to take prisoners and the protection the holding provides is gone.

The speed caps at 500 troops (i.e. if you have more than 500, it will work at the same speed as if you had 500.

If you want to do any seriouse raiding you should always play norse. They have access to easy targets (Ireland) as well as wealthy lands (Muslim lands and Rome) to raid. They also benefit more than the other raiding cultures, since they get a prestige bonus when raiding by sea. Raiding as a norse may also grant you a "viking" trait which translate as a bonus to opinion, prestige and martial skill.

Once you've sacked a holding, it will get a penalty to taxes for a few years (3 I believe) and will be unsackable untill it's removed -- i.e. don't go back; you won't get anything by raiding it again. Sacking has a (small) chance to destroy buildings and holdings.

If you are able to raid somone and you're planning to conquer their stuff, try sacking a few provinces before you declare war; that way you can cripple your enemy before you've even started the war.

Be warned that ships have a maxium capacity for loot and it will not warn you when your ships have been filled.
Last edited by Jormundgand; May 17, 2014 @ 4:28pm
James the Fair May 17, 2014 @ 8:22pm 
Alright thanks for the info Clearer, but I already know about the norse as I have litually took over entire countries all over europe with them. I often like to play as them, especially since you can reform the pagan religions such as the norse which gave me special access to declare great holy wars which are very much like the crusades/jihads. Also I have done big serious raids with the norse too when I did one game with them where I often came back with 2000 - 3000 gold per raid by using approx 18000 troops and sacking straight into their holdings immediately and then only to return back to those very same counties after the 2 year looted period is over to repeat the cycle.

It is true that the norse is the best religion to use when it comes to serious raiding, but I feel that the other pagan religions such as the Tengri and the Slavics, are somehow lacking behind the norse and don't offer that many advantages when playing as them. Maybe an option like "prepare a raiding expedition" in the same way the norse can prepare invasions and then wait for the number of troops to swell, might be the way for them to gain an advantage that can match the norse could be the way, but not sure if this is typical of such religions.

They definitely need some other advantages if youre to survive much better, especially when theres so many powerful enemies around you, like Langkard says.
Last edited by James the Fair; May 17, 2014 @ 8:22pm
Sevrojin May 17, 2014 @ 8:40pm 
is raiding realy worth it? guess i need to play a better raiding faction because iv found raiding barly over powers the upkeep cost on army maintenence
Last edited by Sevrojin; May 17, 2014 @ 8:42pm
Deep Hurting May 17, 2014 @ 9:27pm 
To be fair, Tengri really doesn't need any extra advantages.. While norse are stuck with a single prepared invasion (after which they will probalby have too many holdings to launch another), single county conquests and (very risky) holy wars once they reform, Tengri can take whole kingdoms in a single war without running the risk involved with holy wars. They're extremely easy to reform (heck, the AI manages it half the time) have one of the best religion bonuses in the game which they don't lose by reforming, and don't have the horrible penalties to short reign which the norse do (reformed norse has the same penalty as unreformed tengri). All improving raiding would do would be to give them even more ways to generate prestige in order to keep the tribal invasion train fully fuelled.

What the non-norse pagans actually lack in real terms is not more mechanical benefits (possible exception of the West Africans, who are noticably worse than other pagans) but more flavour. Tengri doesn't even get a feast event, let alone all the neat little duels, Varangian guard events and other things which keep the norse playthrough interesting. You are just playing a big unstoppable army sweeping down from the Steppes, and that's fun and all but it gets a bit samey.
Last edited by Deep Hurting; May 18, 2014 @ 8:55am
Langkard May 18, 2014 @ 12:06pm 
I second what Deep Hurting says about the advantages. Especially reforming the religion. In fact, in my current game it is only the year 888 and the Tengri head of Hungary just reformed the religion. I had to read it twice, because I thought I was seeing things. The main disadvantage of playing them is just being so poor at the start. Well, that and having to scroll the map in and out a lot because the counties are so large. :)
James the Fair May 18, 2014 @ 2:10pm 
Sevrojin – I understand that when playing as one of the steppe peoples is that when you raise your own army for raiding, there is an upkeep on army maintenance which means when raiding with them, you are just breaking even with them, sometimes even getting into debt yourself when doing it. This is why I think there needs to be a few improvements since they start in such a bad position, and also to make them more playable, or not, whats the point of them being made playable in this game?

Deep Hurting - I agree with you that when constantly raiding for gold also gives you prestige as well, and like you say, this will give them an even more advantage over the non pagan religions. I do think when raiding as any pagan though, there should be no prestige earned since there are plenty of other ways in the game to earn it. Tribal invasions should be a rare occurance anyway and not be fuelled through raiding for gold which earns you prestige for you to do it, which I believe you need 500 prestige to declare an invasion. I also agree adding more flavor to the pagans such as feasts and duels etc. should definitely be included with them as well.

Langkard – I have the same problem scrolling the map in and out because of the vast lands they have out there when playing as them :) However I’ve noticed on one of games once when starting from that period is that it’s often the Tengri King of Hungry who usually reforms the religion. Probulaly because they are usually the strongest tengri pagans in that period in the game, and often declare subjugation wars on other nearby pagans and usually win against them that can earn them lots of land in the steppes which includes holy sites of their religion as well, allowing them to reform once they have enough moral authority and piety.

I was’nt originally going to post this, but I thought of an idea that could help them earn gold only, but no prestige . See what you think of it.

Raiding Expedition

• An option to prepare a raiding expedition within 2 years
• Lots of warriors and adventurers will flock to your banner during that time
• You must then declare the raiding expedition on an enemy kingdom within that time limit
• Then reach your target kingdom with your raiding expedition force within 200 days
• You can only do this once every 5 years
• You cannot have more than one raiding expedition at a time
Last edited by James the Fair; May 18, 2014 @ 2:13pm
Langkard May 18, 2014 @ 8:50pm 
That would be something you could mod.
Jormundgand May 19, 2014 @ 6:24am 
Regarding holy wars; I have never had any problems with them. The key is to play opportunistic; pick targets that are small enough that nearby neighbours will not care about them or can't do anything about it because you're too powerfull. After some time, you'll have reduce the moral authority of any religion you have conquered a lot from to make them have too many rebellions to mind you (being OP compared to them as well). I took over all of GB, Scandinavia, France, Italy, the Iberian Peninsula, most of central and eastern europe as well as most of Asia using holy wars -- only one being a great holy war -- in a space of about 200 years (currently the game has ticked into 1097 -- the past 30 years has almost only seen internal wars with rebellious vassals -- and I'm two wars from having all of the HRE and am about to launch a great holy war for Greece).

@James the Fair; I'm rather ambivelant about your idea -- on one hand it feel right that you would have to declare it somehow, but the whole point of (norse) raids was the element of surprise; quickly assaulting holdings from the sea and retreating before any real armies could arrive. The raids would be frequent and putting a 5 year limit between raids seems excessive.
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Date Posted: May 12, 2014 @ 9:05am
Posts: 20