Pagan Reforms

[Barry White]

Im playing as the Norse religion and im wondering whether or not to reform. I own 3 holy sites and have 1.25K piety so i can reform if i want. But it seems to me i lose more than i gain.

So i gain the holy war CB, if im religious head i can call great holy wars (the same as crusades/jihads?), can change succession laws (probably biggest gain) and i dont suffer prestige penalty for peace (doesnt matter im never really at peace).
Thats quite a lot but most of it seemes pretty meh. I imagine there is like a 20 year cooldown on crusades and after my first monarch ill probably not be leader. Holy war CB is good but i already have invasion and subjugation which is enough tbh. succ laws is huge though - gavelkind sucks!!! I hate having to always assassinate my wives because everyone seems to be some drunk blabbermouth.
I lose, however: free ability to call vassal levies and defensive supply effects. Free vassal levies is huge! like massive! Defensive supply effects meh, dont really care maybe i undervalue it but it doenst seem very good unless im against it.

So im wondering to those much better at CK2 than me should i reform? And more importantly will the AI reform if i dont? because i dont want to be a norse heretic.



Edit: unrelated question, well sort of, can banished characters inherit through gavelkind?

[ShadoWwolF]

as a norse you wont always have the prepared invasion. you lose that when you get bigger. so all you'll have is conquest and subjugation. one of those is limited to one county at a time and the other is limited to once per lifetime. the holy war cb is a pretty big step up. and yes great holy wars are the same as crusades and your heir will inherit the religious head title unless you give it away. and the AI will only reform if they meet the requirements. if you control the holy site then the AI cant reform because they dont control them, unless a vassal of yours controls them, then they might reform and then they'll be the religious head. and yes banished character can still inherit

[Barry White]

ty vm
do all pagan religions have save holy sites? if, say, tengri reform then do i have to comply to tengri faith?

[Johann Gambolputty of Ulm]

1. Each faith has its own holy site:
http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Holy_sites

For the already "civilized" religions, those are mainly for counting its authority (if authority of religion is low, its more prone to heresies) and as a trigger for Holy Wars (so, f.e., if you shall conquer Cologne/Koln in Germany as Norse, the pope will introduce the idea of Crusades).
Obviously, other paganic holy sites and their reformation have nothin to do with your faith.

2. As for banished characters - if they are eligible for inheriting, it has nothin to do. Only those characters that seek career in religion (as religious vassals or in some holy orders) OR are eunuchs are disqualified from succession. Same as not legitimized b.a.s.t.a.r.d.s, of course.

[Barry White]

ty, helpful forum here

[Sain240]

You really do want to reform the religion. It lets you do a lot of cool stuff with official religious doctrines, it lets you convert new areas AND lords to your religion, and priests stop trying to convert your country (although this does leave you with a much less entertaining sacrifice during your pagan festivals).
All in all, I enjoyed post-reform gameplay.

[Mallrat]

The only down side to reforming is the loss of the defensive bonus, plus your supply limit in all of your pagan enemies' counties will drastically drop. Other than that, your religion will become very stable, which will allow you to convert provinces and vassals way faster. I think you should probably reform when you think you've had enough fighting with your (unreformed) pagan neighbors, because after that it gets pretty difficult to win sieges.

[Barry White]

having reformed i can say that i wouldnt advise it if you dont have lvl 4 military organisation and still plan on killing pagans because as mallrat said it becomes really difficult to effectively seige due to attrition.

[markdb92]

just hire a lot of mercs have them assult as soon they get there since they die to suppy anyway.

[Finnway]

Автор сообщения: UltimateHobo

Holy war CB is good but i already have invasion and subjugation which is enough tbh.

You can only use prepared invasions when you have less than 40 holdings in your realm (for comparison, the Kingdom or Norway starts with 39) and you do not lose it when you reform.
You can only use subjagation once in a leader's lifetime. Holy Wars, on the other hand, allow you to swallow an entire duchy at a time and peace treaties only last 10 years.

So yes, I definitely think the reform is worthwhile. Most of your vassals will convert when you reform too.