Naval Warfare

[TerriblyGrimm]

Will we ever sea Naval Warfare? why hasnt paradox added a DLC focusing on dynamic naval warfare?

Playing as any Island nation your navy is your shield and maritime is essentialy what fills your treasurey it is absolutely vital, watching vikings land on your shores un-opposed when your fleet is 3 times their size and blockading the coastline makes no sense

It might not be the most famous combat aspect of this timeline, however it was no less absolutely vital, especially for rulers in the british isles, italian pensinsula and byzantine empire

Who doesnt want to spit greek fire at a dirty jihadist? :P

[TerriblyGrimm]

I wouldnt expect that a naval battle would be enough to sink an entire invasion force in one battle, though you would commit significant damage, personally i find the Galley naval tactics of the timeline quite interesting, they would crew the ships with heavy crossbows and fire at enemy vessels while closing into boarding range or if the angle was good just ramming straight into a structural weakness.

It would be great to see it represented in game, right now ships seem somewhat pointless, they are expensive to use and are only for transporting troops and carrying loot if you are raiding as a tribal.

If I were them, i'd have it so ships were always raised, like retinues, they would have options on upkeep funding which effects them while in port.

No funding: Would give them no moral recovery and moral would not be able to raise past 30% ships would not be replaced and marines would not reinforce.
Medium funding: half upkeep cost, moral recovers and destroyed ships and marines are replaced in the port, moral not able to raise past 60%
Full funding: Full upkeep cost, moral recovers, and can raise to 100% destroyed ships are replaced and marines reinforced in the port

conventional ship levies would be cogs solely for troop transport and aquired with regular ports like ingame

Millitary ships would be Galleys to keep it simple models, names and slight stat specialties would be dependent on the culture group of the territory and the development of their culture specific drydocks for the ships of that territory

Special title to appoint Admirals, who would work like commanders but for navies
Battles would work like conventional CK2 battles but tactics and terrain factors would be related to naval doctrines and conditions
primary battle factors being the number of ships and marines within the fleet
marines being ranged(heavy crossbows, bows, greekfire etc)
and melee(boarding parties, naval rams)

I think this would be a nice way to introduce Naval Warfare into CK2
Whats your thoughts on this?

[gregoryk64]

Originally posted by BffWithDEATH:

I wouldnt expect that a naval battle would be enough to sink an entire invasion force in one battle, though you would commit significant damage, personally i find the Galley naval tactics of the timeline quite interesting, they would crew the ships with heavy crossbows and fire at enemy vessels while closing into boarding range or if the angle was good just ramming straight into a structural weakness.

It would be great to see it represented in game, right now ships seem somewhat pointless, they are expensive to use and are only for transporting troops and carrying loot if you are raiding as a tribal.

If I were them, i'd have it so ships were always raised, like retinues, they would have options on upkeep funding which effects them while in port.

No funding: Would give them no moral recovery and moral would not be able to raise past 30% ships would not be replaced and marines would not reinforce.
Medium funding: half upkeep cost, moral recovers and destroyed ships and marines are replaced in the port, moral not able to raise past 60%
Full funding: Full upkeep cost, moral recovers, and can raise to 100% destroyed ships are replaced and marines reinforced in the port

conventional ship levies would be cogs solely for troop transport and aquired with regular ports like ingame

Millitary ships would be Galleys to keep it simple models, names and slight stat specialties would be dependent on the culture group of the territory and the development of their culture specific drydocks for the ships of that territory

Special title to appoint Admirals, who would work like commanders but for navies
Battles would work like conventional CK2 battles but tactics and terrain factors would be related to naval doctrines and conditions
primary battle factors being the number of ships and marines within the fleet
marines being ranged(heavy crossbows, bows, greekfire etc)
and melee(boarding parties, naval rams)

I think this would be a nice way to introduce Naval Warfare into CK2
Whats your thoughts on this?

Not something that I want to see. I just went through a discussion about this, so I'll just keep this short.

Yes, naval warfare existed in historically in the CK2 timeline, mainly in the Eastern Med. For the most part, navies were primarily just transport, as is depicted in the game

However, as a whole, it was largely insignificant with no real effective use until very late in the CK2 timeline (say mid to late 13th century) and did not become a strategic force in warfare until the advent of cannon, which is right about where CK2 stops and EU4 picks up.

So, to maintain at least some sense of historical accuracy in the game, any addition of naval warfare to th game mechanics would have to be so weak and inconcequential that there's little point in having it.

To add any naval strategy that would be interesting to play or even be useful strategically to the player, the game would have to ignore the technological accuracy of the time period. It would be like adding stealth bombers and F-18s to HOI4.

[BandAid]

While I agree that naval warfare in the open seas was insignifacant I would really welcome it if you at least had the option to block freaking rivers with your ships so that these thrice be damned viking raiders cant just start plundering in the middle of your realm.

[gregoryk64]

Originally posted by BandAid:

While I agree that naval warfare in the open seas was insignifacant I would really welcome it if you at least had the option to block freaking rivers with your ships so that these thrice be damned viking raiders cant just start plundering in the middle of your realm.

Which only reinforces my point.. One of the reasons Vikings were so effective in Western Europe is because their targets had no effective means to keep them from landing.

I agree early game Viking raiders can be a pain in the ass. They are supposed to be. But eventually as you increase your territory it becomes easier to deal with. While you are working on gaining additional counties, take the time to improve your existing holdings to increase your levies and fort level. They will soon become strong enough that most raiding parties will not be able to siege your territory and will move on to weaker targets.

Also, raiders then to be fairly weak compared to your own troops. They are not that difficult to beat and frequently lose to better equipped armies, even if they have inferior numbers.

[BandAid]

Originally posted by gregoryk64:

Originally posted by BandAid:

While I agree that naval warfare in the open seas was insignifacant I would really welcome it if you at least had the option to block freaking rivers with your ships so that these thrice be damned viking raiders cant just start plundering in the middle of your realm.

That's kind of the point. One of the reasons Vikings were so effective in Western Europe is because their targets had no effective means to keep them from landing.

I can understand that to be the case on coasts but it should be possible to block a river. 50 galleys in the river mouth should do the trick. Or a big frigging castle right next to it, with lots of catapult emplacements and a big garrison. Its not like europe is fractured in my game like it was in history. There are lots of resources to spare and you can built new castles anyway. I would place them in strategic postitions given the chance.

[gregoryk64]

Originally posted by BandAid:

Originally posted by gregoryk64:

That's kind of the point. One of the reasons Vikings were so effective in Western Europe is because their targets had no effective means to keep them from landing.

I can understand that to be the case on coasts but it should be possible to block a river. 50 galleys in the river mouth should do the trick. Or a big frigging castle right next to it, with lots of catapult emplacements and a big garrison. Its not like europe is fractured in my game like it was in history. There are lots of resources to spare and you can built new castles anyway. I would place them in strategic postitions given the chance.

And again, the game mechanics support this. Having additional castles and improving them increases your personal levy. If a group of raiders 1000 strong lands in your county, raise your 1300 strong army in that county and the raiders are toast. Or raise the levy when you see them walking off the boats toward you and watch them run away. Raiders are persistent but they will always avoid a fight they are unlikely to win.

[PastaCrusade]

The rivers do get blocked. The wiki says "Rivers are no longer navigable once the average fort level of the adjacent provinces exceeds 10"

[BandAid]

Those raiders who are stupid enough to land in my territory are toast. The problems start when they raid my vassals. Since vassal armies start with zero moral you cannot raise them in the raided province because they will lose instantly no matter the odds. By the time the levies from other provinces arrive a lot of damage has already be done.

@PastaCrusade: Is there any clarification on how this works? Are all fort levels of a province added up?

[PastaCrusade]

Originally posted by BandAid:

@PastaCrusade: Is there any clarification on how this works? Are all fort levels of a province added up?

It must be, castles max out around fort level 8ish and that would be end game.

[gregoryk64]

Originally posted by BandAid:

Those raiders who are stupid enough to land in my territory are toast. The problems start when they raid my vassals. Since vassal armies start with zero moral you cannot raise them in the raided province because they will lose instantly no matter the odds. By the time the levies from other provinces arrive a lot of damage has already be done.

@PastaCrusade: Is there any clarification on how this works? Are all fort levels of a province added up?

If one of my dukes can't deal with a raiding party it's really not my problem. Those are his holdings and his gold. If his holdings get torched it really doesn't hurt me. If anything, it helps keep my vassals weak and makes them less of a threat to me.

Now, an invading host that is actually trying to claim territory is another issue entirely.