Tributary CB OP?

[Myshkin]

I have noticed that I am able to snowball pretty much everything starting with a single country by spamming tributaries CBs (and I am really a noob).

The cool thing about it, is that it gives you plenty prestige to drop the tributaries when you want and also grants you nearly an 100% military support for any offensive wars.

Shouldn't it be nerfed somehow?

[VoiD]

It's a weaker version of regular expansion, a tributary pays something like 15% and 20% levies/taxes to you, in turn you count as their suzerain and, if you want to keep them, you have to protect them against all kinds of wars and CBs they might use against that single tributary on your own.

When you take over their lands as their liege you can easily take 80% of their troops and more money, and they can't break away so easily without a massive revolt. Personally I haven't used that CB yet.

[Myshkin]

Isn't it too "spammable"?

[VoiD]

Sort of, but if you're spamming it that means you're building your entire empire with it, say you inherit the throne, your prestige is low and someone declares war on you while you're weak and stabilizing your realm, you lose and your prestige goes negative for a while, there goes your entire empire.

At most I'd use it as a support mechanic for expansion, in fact even an alliance might be better as you can take 100% of your ally's troops to help you during war. Perhaps for troublesome neighbors or neighbors of different religions you don't plan to expand against it might be a good idea;

[Pauli]

Tributaries have always provided too much military support imo. Vassals are limited to 50% max that is only from barons in your capital. Other get less depending on de jure distance to your capital. Llowest is outside your de jure empire that provides only 12.5%. Also tributaries pay a lot more taxes than vassals. Only down side for old style tributaries were that you lost them in inheritance.

Then new parallel system only lets tributaries free if you go to negative prestige which can happen during inheritance if you don't manage heir carefully. Also new tributary option raises tax from 40% to 50% that is insanely high compared to feudal vassals.

Only minus for tributaries is that you don't get retinues but they don't matter in early game and AI won't use retinues well so you could easily play whole game as a tributary empire. (Sorry. I read Nomad tributary rules. I guess I found one more way how nomads are OP that I didn't know before)

New tributary state system actully looks sane. only 20% taxes that is still quite high compared to feudal vassals. But you can't call them into fars. They give only reinforcement bonus to suzerain. That bonus can be helpful if you need to assault holdings but I don't see much else use for faster reinforcement. Reinformement speed would only matter if you lose battles but that should happen if using movement and scouting to pick only winable battles.

The traditional tributary is very powerful but balanced because you lose them during inheritance. While new one is long term but provides resonably low bonuses. Also long term tributary state has multiple break awat conditions and they seem to have indepence faction like behavior too. So only OP tributary is Nomad Tributary.

[VoiD]

Originally posted by Pauli:

Tributaries have always provided too much military support imo. Vassals are limited to 50% max that is only from barons in your capital. Other get less depending on de jure distance to your capital. Llowest is outside your de jure empire that provides only 12.5%. Also tributaries pay a lot more taxes than vassals. Only down side for old style tributaries were that you lost them in inheritance.

Then new parallel system only lets tributaries free if you go to negative prestige which can happen during inheritance if you don't manage heir carefully. Also new tributary option raises tax from 40% to 50% that is insanely high compared to feudal vassals.

Maybe tributaries should get huge levy penalties to reduce their compined military power. Also I would halve the tributary tax for both types. I think the current system was just randomly set to something that might work for tribals but it is far from good for anything else.

Wait there are 2 kinds of tributaries right?

The 40% tax gives no military support, works as an ally but is lost when you die no matter what, the other one gives a lot less tax and military support and can't be called into wars as an ally or am I mistaken?

[Pauli]

Originally posted by VoiD:

Wait there are 2 kinds of tributaries right?

The 40% tax gives no military support, works as an ally but is lost when you die no matter what, the other one gives a lot less tax and military support and can't be called into wars as an ally or am I mistaken?

You are correct. I noticed that I read details for Nomads instead of Jade dragon. I edited my earlier post to reflect my error.

[VoiD]

Originally posted by Pauli:

Originally posted by VoiD:

Wait there are 2 kinds of tributaries right?

The 40% tax gives no military support, works as an ally but is lost when you die no matter what, the other one gives a lot less tax and military support and can't be called into wars as an ally or am I mistaken?

You are correct. I noticed that I read details for Nomads instead of Jade dragon. I edited my earlier post to reflect my error.

I didn't know there was a difference either, thanks for the info

[VoiD]

btw OP if what you want is quick expansion you don't really need tributaries, if you're a king invite any person from nearby realms of your religion with a strong claim on any duchies you want to take, give them some land then declare war to take their claim, if you're an emperor you can do the same and start swallowing kingdoms nonstop, if you want lands from people of other religion you can just holy war.

[Myshkin]

Well, why do I get troops as well from tax tributaries?

[Azunai]

afaik the 2 different types are:

- extort tribute: only for 1 generation (when your ruler dies, they are automatically released); 40% tax and can be called into wars; that's the one that was added in horse lords DLC

EDIT: there's also a special version of the "extort tribute" type that is only available to nomads. the nomad version pays even more tax and also generates prestige and can't break free.

- make tributary state: 20% tax & 15% levy reinforcment rate, permanent (until they break free). can't be called into war, but they can call you into war if they get attacked. can break free if you deny their plea for help.

i think the chinese have a special (stronger) version of that 2nd type.