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Mr.Fishy Mar 10, 2013 @ 4:03am
It's okay...
A lot of people have been blowing this up because it's a lot better than past tomb raider games but it still does a lot of things wrong from it's past. Small things like how Lara seems to get distracted to a spot or area, at times this spot can be not what you are trying to jump to and can easily cause you fall to your death. The story was way too slow for me, I had put everything together in under an hour into the game and around the 2-3 hour mark Lara finally figured out that the sun queen was controlling the weather (or at least suspected it.) To have her simply say something like "My dad use to tell me all these myths that I refuse to believe in." in the beginning of the game would have helped the pacing for me but either it was said and not prominent enough or it wasn't.

All that said don't buy this thinking it's going to be revolutionary or completely blow the lid off the tomb raider series. It takes it a better direction but that can mainly be contributed to playing a less objectifed Lara while keeping the game generally the same...
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Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Tuskan GA Mar 10, 2013 @ 4:43am 
Are you saying that Lara is missing the jumps you're attempting?

Because if so that's not the game's fault, it's your's or your hardware's. I played this game 1.5 times and I actually noticed that she makes a point to drift into the thing that will prevent you from falling to your death, which makes it remarkably hard to do so.

The only two times she doesn't do this is if the thing you're attempting to jump to can't be grabbed or if you dramatically fail to aim her. Basically all objects that can be grabbed are white on top; if what you're attempting to grab isn't white on top, it can't be grabbed.

As for your comments about the story, you've made two mistakes. The first is that Lara does make a comment like that about her father pretty early on.

The second is that the story of the game isn't about the Sun Queen and the weather. The story is about Lara's shift from innocent archeologist to hard core heroine.
Last edited by Tuskan GA; Mar 10, 2013 @ 4:44am
GrimAquatic Mar 10, 2013 @ 4:48am 
I'd say he made a third mistake in which he assumed supernatural cause to be the only plausible explanation. The game takes place in real world, and if someone told you the weather is controlled by several thousand years old woman, you'd think they gone mad.
Tuskan GA Mar 10, 2013 @ 4:53am 
Originally posted by GrimAquatic:
I'd say he made a third mistake in which he assumed supernatural cause to be the only plausible explanation. The game takes place in real world, and if someone told you the weather is controlled by several thousand years old woman, you'd think they gone mad.

Also true. Viewed from Lara's perspective as a university graduate, supernatural cause is one of the last things to be taken as a possibility.

Unfortunately in a market where Skyrim, The Witcher 2, Uncharted, and a slew of other games make use of supernatural events, we as players aren't viewing the narrative the same way.

Combine that with Tomb Raider's heritage, and it probably wasn't a great move to take that tact. Or it least they handled it poorly by not making it painfully obvious where Lara stood and giving that position legitimacy.
GrimAquatic Mar 10, 2013 @ 4:59am 
Originally posted by Tuskan GA:
Combine that with Tomb Raider's heritage, and it probably wasn't a great move to take that tact. Or it least they handled it poorly by not making it painfully obvious where Lara stood and giving that position legitimacy.
Well, she does mention on several occasions that Sam loses her on shamanistic powers of Himiko.
Mr.Fishy Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:00am 
Originally posted by Tuskan GA:
Are you saying that Lara is missing the jumps you're attempting?

Because if so that's not the game's fault, it's your's or your hardware's. I played this game 1.5 times and I actually noticed that she makes a point to drift into the thing that will prevent you from falling to your death, which makes it remarkably hard to do so.

The only two times she doesn't do this is if the thing you're attempting to jump to can't be grabbed or if you dramatically fail to aim her. Basically all objects that can be grabbed are white on top; if what you're attempting to grab isn't white on top, it can't be grabbed.

As for your comments about the story, you've made two mistakes. The first is that Lara does make a comment like that about her father pretty early on.

The second is that the story of the game isn't about the Sun Queen and the weather. The story is about Lara's shift from innocent archeologist to hard core heroine.
To reproduce, hit Q then watch as Lara looks directly though walls to focus on the main marker. Doing this while jumping will cause her to drift towards the marker and not a landing point. As well there can be several landing points (such as a rock wall and a rope) and Lara can drift towards the one that you didn't want to land on.

Also like I said before The father comment wasn't really prominent then. It really was undercut by the actual story unfolding, such as sinking.

Further more the story moves slow for me, maybe not for you but I had the entire story figured out. It never had me guessing, neither with the stuff on the surface or below. The second she fell and got gutted by a bone I knew she would end up banged and scraped up.

Originally posted by GrimAquatic:
I'd say he made a third mistake in which he assumed supernatural cause to be the only plausible explanation. The game takes place in real world, and if someone told you the weather is controlled by several thousand years old woman, you'd think they gone mad.
This I can actually understand to bring her to reality and explain that people will do a lot to try to prove science is some how behind it. They point to that a little but it still doesn't make it less slow of a story, nor does it make it any less boring when you have figured out the entire plot by the end of act 1. Sitting there waiting for the actual events to play out is the worst feeling in a video game, makes me want to rush more and more through it.

Edit:
Originally posted by Tuskan GA:
Combine that with Tomb Raider's heritage, and it probably wasn't a great move to take that tact. Or it least they handled it poorly by not making it painfully obvious where Lara stood and giving that position legitimacy.
This is totally what was getting at. It's not pronounced that she was a sane and rational human. Stories of any medium like to get the ball rolling by ignoring this a lot.
Last edited by Mr.Fishy; Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:02am
Tuskan GA Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:04am 
Originally posted by GrimAquatic:
Originally posted by Tuskan GA:
Combine that with Tomb Raider's heritage, and it probably wasn't a great move to take that tact. Or it least they handled it poorly by not making it painfully obvious where Lara stood and giving that position legitimacy.
Well, she does mention on several occasions that Sam loses her on shamanistic powers of Himiko.

I know. But that position doesn't have enough legitimacy in this game, franchise, or market. They don't spend much time explaining why she's right to believe what she does and in a work of fiction it's kind of important you do that.
Mr.Fishy Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:04am 
Originally posted by GrimAquatic:
Originally posted by Tuskan GA:
Combine that with Tomb Raider's heritage, and it probably wasn't a great move to take that tact. Or it least they handled it poorly by not making it painfully obvious where Lara stood and giving that position legitimacy.
Well, she does mention on several occasions that Sam loses her on shamanistic powers of Himiko.
Eh, but that's really underswept in my opinion. In fact it's kind of bad fore-shadowing because by that time you are screaming at Lara to realize it is shamanistic powers.
GrimAquatic Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:04am 
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
They point to that a little but it still doesn't make it less slow of a story, nor does it make it any less boring when you have figured out the entire plot by the end of act 1. Sitting there waiting for the actual events to play out is the worst feeling in a video game, makes me want to rush more and more through it.
In that case you missed the point of the plot in which Sun Queen, island, storms and even capture of Sam are just a background in which the survivor is born.
Mr.Fishy Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:08am 
Originally posted by GrimAquatic:
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
They point to that a little but it still doesn't make it less slow of a story, nor does it make it any less boring when you have figured out the entire plot by the end of act 1. Sitting there waiting for the actual events to play out is the worst feeling in a video game, makes me want to rush more and more through it.
In that case you missed the point of the plot in which Sun Queen, island, storms and even capture of Sam are just a background in which the survivor is born.
No I understood it. Now Lara is this survivor in which she will go on questing for answers to the past "myths" told by her father. This is obvious as a game ending before you even start because they want to sell more games and the past games in the series has pointed to this tens if not hundreds of times by now. I know this is a reboot but if you had seen an ounce of tomb raider media then you know it's always been a family business.
Gabi Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:12am 
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
A lot of people have been blowing this up because it's a lot better than past tomb raider games but it still does a lot of things wrong from it's past. Small things like how Lara seems to get distracted to a spot or area, at times this spot can be not what you are trying to jump to and can easily cause you fall to your death. The story was way too slow for me, I had put everything together in under an hour into the game and around the 2-3 hour mark Lara finally figured out that the sun queen was controlling the weather (or at least suspected it.) To have her simply say something like "My dad use to tell me all these myths that I refuse to believe in." in the beginning of the game would have helped the pacing for me but either it was said and not prominent enough or it wasn't.

All that said don't buy this thinking it's going to be revolutionary or completely blow the lid off the tomb raider series. It takes it a better direction but that can mainly be contributed to playing a less objectifed Lara while keeping the game generally the same...


... is that so, i'm not convinced it is the best so to speak, and in many ways it isn't the best. Some people liked the over the top fighting of Dinasours, others liked the games with more puzzles. For me I will have to give it more time, it is so different i'm not sure how it compares to some of the better Tomb Raiders (but it is easily up there).

As for her not figuring it out, that's because jumping to a supernatural conclusion for a character who is meant to be grounded would be silly. Bewilderment I fell was appropriate.
Tuskan GA Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:14am 
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
Originally posted by Tuskan GA:
Are you saying that Lara is missing the jumps you're attempting?

Because if so that's not the game's fault, it's your's or your hardware's. I played this game 1.5 times and I actually noticed that she makes a point to drift into the thing that will prevent you from falling to your death, which makes it remarkably hard to do so.

The only two times she doesn't do this is if the thing you're attempting to jump to can't be grabbed or if you dramatically fail to aim her. Basically all objects that can be grabbed are white on top; if what you're attempting to grab isn't white on top, it can't be grabbed.

As for your comments about the story, you've made two mistakes. The first is that Lara does make a comment like that about her father pretty early on.

The second is that the story of the game isn't about the Sun Queen and the weather. The story is about Lara's shift from innocent archeologist to hard core heroine.
To reproduce, hit Q then watch as Lara looks directly though walls to focus on the main marker. Doing this while jumping will cause her to drift towards the marker and not a landing point. As well there can be several landing points (such as a rock wall and a rope) and Lara can drift towards the one that you didn't want to land on.

Also like I said before The father comment wasn't really prominent then. It really was undercut by the actual story unfolding, such as sinking.

Further more the story moves slow for me, maybe not for you but I had the entire story figured out. It never had me guessing, neither with the stuff on the surface or below. The second she fell and got gutted by a bone I knew she would end up banged and scraped up.

How can you even complain about that? First off, pressing Q activates survival instinct. Survival instinct is utterly useless when moving; it deactivates the moment you move. Why in the heck are you pressing Q while jumping? Accidentally?

Are you really complaining about the game causing you to die because you accidentally pressed Q while in mid air? That's ludicrous.

Secondly, she doesn't just say she disagrees with her father, which happens subtly and not so subtly several times before the plane crash, she also explicitly disagrees with her friends about it AND creates a log entry immediately following the crash detailing her general disbelief.

I may agree it wasn't handled perfectly but I don't agree it was handled ineptly.
Originally posted by Tuskan GA:
Combine that with Tomb Raider's heritage, and it probably wasn't a great move to take that tact. Or it least they handled it poorly by not making it painfully obvious where Lara stood and giving that position legitimacy.
This is totally what was getting at. It's not pronounced that she was a sane and rational human. Stories of any medium like to get the ball rolling by ignoring this a lot.
[/quote]

Her being sane and rational is in fact quite expressly explained. What isn't expressly explained is why the player shouldn't be expecting supernatural forces in a Tomb Raider game.

Taken as representation of a real character in a real situation, would you immediately assume supernatural involvement in the same situation? Knowing what you do about science, mathematics, and the world in general?

If so, you simply can't be described as rational.

The problem with how they presented it isn't that it's not objectively believeable from Lara's perspective. It most certainly is. The problem with the way it's presented is that not enough effort went into legitimizing the most rational reaction in a game that's part of a franchise with a storied history of supernatural forces.


Last edited by Tuskan GA; Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:16am
GrimAquatic Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:17am 
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
No I understood it. Now Lara is this survivor in which she will go on questing for answers to the past "myths" told by her father. This is obvious as a game ending before you even start because they want to sell more games and the past games in the series has pointed to this tens if not hundreds of times by now. I know this is a reboot but if you had seen an ounce of tomb raider media then you know it's always been a family business.

Now you lost me. I have no idea what you call tomb raider media. From Legends, I think, I know that her father spent his last years looking for his wife, Lara's mother. who, he believed got cought is parallel dimension. And I remember her saying that she didn't believe him then.

As for family business her parents died when she was young. I doubt her father would be so careless that he'd risk her life taking her to some boogedy-boogedy dig site.
Mr.Fishy Mar 10, 2013 @ 2:17pm 
Originally posted by GrimAquatic:
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
No I understood it. Now Lara is this survivor in which she will go on questing for answers to the past "myths" told by her father. This is obvious as a game ending before you even start because they want to sell more games and the past games in the series has pointed to this tens if not hundreds of times by now. I know this is a reboot but if you had seen an ounce of tomb raider media then you know it's always been a family business.

Now you lost me. I have no idea what you call tomb raider media. From Legends, I think, I know that her father spent his last years looking for his wife, Lara's mother. who, he believed got cought is parallel dimension. And I remember her saying that she didn't believe him then.

As for family business her parents died when she was young. I doubt her father would be so careless that he'd risk her life taking her to some boogedy-boogedy dig site.
She found her pendent that she wore around her neck the entire game at a dig sit of her fathers when she was like 6. Tomb Raider games have always had that "following in dad's foot steps." Thats all I really meant. Not a serious family business but just always family driven.

Originally posted by Tuskan GA:
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
To reproduce, hit Q then watch as Lara looks directly though walls to focus on the main marker. Doing this while jumping will cause her to drift towards the marker and not a landing point. As well there can be several landing points (such as a rock wall and a rope) and Lara can drift towards the one that you didn't want to land on.

Also like I said before The father comment wasn't really prominent then. It really was undercut by the actual story unfolding, such as sinking.

Further more the story moves slow for me, maybe not for you but I had the entire story figured out. It never had me guessing, neither with the stuff on the surface or below. The second she fell and got gutted by a bone I knew she would end up banged and scraped up.

How can you even complain about that? First off, pressing Q activates survival instinct. Survival instinct is utterly useless when moving; it deactivates the moment you move. Why in the heck are you pressing Q while jumping? Accidentally?

Are you really complaining about the game causing you to die because you accidentally pressed Q while in mid air? That's ludicrous.

Secondly, she doesn't just say she disagrees with her father, which happens subtly and not so subtly several times before the plane crash, she also explicitly disagrees with her friends about it AND creates a log entry immediately following the crash detailing her general disbelief.

I may agree it wasn't handled perfectly but I don't agree it was handled ineptly.

This is totally what was getting at. It's not pronounced that she was a sane and rational human. Stories of any medium like to get the ball rolling by ignoring this a lot.

Her being sane and rational is in fact quite expressly explained. What isn't expressly explained is why the player shouldn't be expecting supernatural forces in a Tomb Raider game.

Taken as representation of a real character in a real situation, would you immediately assume supernatural involvement in the same situation? Knowing what you do about science, mathematics, and the world in general?

If so, you simply can't be described as rational.

The problem with how they presented it isn't that it's not objectively believeable from Lara's perspective. It most certainly is. The problem with the way it's presented is that not enough effort went into legitimizing the most rational reaction in a game that's part of a franchise with a storied history of supernatural forces. [/quote]
Of course jumping to conclusions of super natural is crazy but in works of fiction it happens ALL the time. Specially that of video games and movies. If you got a phone call at work and the guy on the phone said "Listen these people who just walked onto the floor are looking for you, run." would you actually run if you had never done anything wrong? No, you probably wouldn't. But the matrix like many other media's did this to keep the ball moving and get some action in the scene.

Generally I just think the game's story was really slow paced. You can feel it's not but I think it was because I had everything figured out and I had to wait for the characters to hurry up and figure it out as well. This is usually a bad thing in story design unless you are fore-shadowing even then fore-shadowing shouldn't last the entire story nor should it be as blunt as a club.

Edit: also for something based so much on "reality" she should have died like 3 hours into the game when she was climbing through blood and sewage with a hole in her side. No matter how much you clean something like that, it's not going to magically not let liquids in. Even so she used fire to clot it and help clean it, she had already been through a lot of water and sewage. Also the pool of blood, yeah, she would have a TON of diseases. So with the whole reality thing, the game is trying to have it's cake and eat it too.
Last edited by Mr.Fishy; Mar 10, 2013 @ 2:29pm
Racker Mar 10, 2013 @ 2:58pm 
Best Tomb Raider for yet for me, got it on consle though since ive always played Tomb Raider games from my couch :D
Tuskan GA Mar 10, 2013 @ 2:59pm 
Originally posted by Mr. Fishy:
Originally posted by GrimAquatic:

Now you lost me. I have no idea what you call tomb raider media. From Legends, I think, I know that her father spent his last years looking for his wife, Lara's mother. who, he believed got cought is parallel dimension. And I remember her saying that she didn't believe him then.

As for family business her parents died when she was young. I doubt her father would be so careless that he'd risk her life taking her to some boogedy-boogedy dig site.
She found her pendent that she wore around her neck the entire game at a dig sit of her fathers when she was like 6. Tomb Raider games have always had that "following in dad's foot steps." Thats all I really meant. Not a serious family business but just always family driven.

Originally posted by Tuskan GA:

How can you even complain about that? First off, pressing Q activates survival instinct. Survival instinct is utterly useless when moving; it deactivates the moment you move. Why in the heck are you pressing Q while jumping? Accidentally?

Are you really complaining about the game causing you to die because you accidentally pressed Q while in mid air? That's ludicrous.

Secondly, she doesn't just say she disagrees with her father, which happens subtly and not so subtly several times before the plane crash, she also explicitly disagrees with her friends about it AND creates a log entry immediately following the crash detailing her general disbelief.

I may agree it wasn't handled perfectly but I don't agree it was handled ineptly.

Her being sane and rational is in fact quite expressly explained. What isn't expressly explained is why the player shouldn't be expecting supernatural forces in a Tomb Raider game.

Taken as representation of a real character in a real situation, would you immediately assume supernatural involvement in the same situation? Knowing what you do about science, mathematics, and the world in general?

If so, you simply can't be described as rational.

The problem with how they presented it isn't that it's not objectively believeable from Lara's perspective. It most certainly is. The problem with the way it's presented is that not enough effort went into legitimizing the most rational reaction in a game that's part of a franchise with a storied history of supernatural forces.

Of course jumping to conclusions of super natural is crazy but in works of fiction it happens ALL the time. Specially that of video games and movies. If you got a phone call at work and the guy on the phone said "Listen these people who just walked onto the floor are looking for you, run." would you actually run if you had never done anything wrong? No, you probably wouldn't. But the matrix like many other media's did this to keep the ball moving and get some action in the scene.

Generally I just think the game's story was really slow paced. You can feel it's not but I think it was because I had everything figured out and I had to wait for the characters to hurry up and figure it out as well. This is usually a bad thing in story design unless you are fore-shadowing even then fore-shadowing shouldn't last the entire story nor should it be as blunt as a club.

Edit: also for something based so much on "reality" she should have died like 3 hours into the game when she was climbing through blood and sewage with a hole in her side. No matter how much you clean something like that, it's not going to magically not let liquids in. Even so she used fire to clot it and help clean it, she had already been through a lot of water and sewage. Also the pool of blood, yeah, she would have a TON of diseases. So with the whole reality thing, the game is trying to have it's cake and eat it too.

I'm definitely not disagreeing that the game has problems with how revelations are handled; I'm just disagreeing about the cause. You say it's because it takes too long for Lara to realize things, I say it's because Lara's perspective is the right one, it just wasn't portrayed as such well enough.

How she reacts and when she realizes things is probably not too far off, but in order for it to work the way CD is trying to do it her perspective needed to have been given more legitimacy by, for instance, not making the plane crash thing quite so obvious.


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Tomb Raider > General Discussions > Topic Details
Date Posted: Mar 10, 2013 @ 4:03am
Posts: 17