What Makes a Good Tomb Raider Game

[jenski]

I've played the recent Tomb Raider game a few times through, and I have 100% on it. I've read numerous reviews, both from official sites and discussion boards (such as this one). And right off the bat, I liked the Tomb Raider game. But like isn't enough, really.

There are certain elements that are essential to a Tomb Raider game. Most of the time in this last addition, I was killing tons of people with a bow and collecting stuff. And that just feels too much like Legend of Zelda to me. Legend of Zelda is about collecting stuff. Tomb Raider is about opening doors.

When I heard there was an open-world island Tomb Raider coming out, I almost cried. Open-world island!? Tomb Raider? Open-world island would mean you could pretty much go anywhere and do anything except cross the ocean, and that is something I've never seen in a game. And with a Tomb Raider game!

What I really expected from this game was a giant puzzle that outmatched any other Tomb Raider puzzle. I mean, how cool would it be if, at the start of the game, you wander the island and somehow or another find a door. And through the entire game your goal is to get through the door by going into different tombs on the island. You could hunt for survival, time would move from day to day. There could still be lots of action and mystery involved, but the essential element would still be there: Tomb Raider is about opening doors. And what I would want to see in a sequel to this game is an open-world island game where I could go pretty much anywhere I want.

The new game was too linear. After leaving certain areas, you couldn't go back. I mean, how stupid is it that you slide down a fairly shallow hill, but you can't use your climbing axe to go back up. We need this Tomb Raider game. We need the game where you can go almost anywhere you want. Where the entire island is open to you, much like how Ghana is open to you in Tomb Raider: Legend, or how St. Francis' Folly is open to you in the original Tomb Raider, or how Alexandria is open to you in Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation. We need the game where we are wondering for hours and hours what is behind the big door, where we solve maybe four to six tombs to get into that door. Lara can still be a survivor, she can still kick ass, she can still be vulnerable, and she can still grow as a character. But the best Tomb Raider levels and agmes are about getting through the mysterious door.

[GrimAquatic]

Imagine, if you will, a three by seven inch wooden frame - a frame that's a gateway to a world of imagination. Wipe your mind on the welcome mat. You're about to enter The Scary Door.

The game you are describing is called The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

[jenski]

well shoot, I haven't played Skyrim yet. but maybe the makers of Tomb Raider should be looking to as a sort template.

[81MiDagerPCGameaholic]

I was a fan of Tomb Raider from the start for the mind boggeling puzzles and gaunlets of death to overcome. If this game lacks that it's just another game with a character named Lara Croft in a game called Tomb Riader.
Personaly, Im not yet willing to pay full price for the game, if the survival elements aren't polished enought to be considered an actual survival game.
TBH, another reason I loved most Tomb Raider games was to explore the environment, with minimal human contact. This game seems to have a bit of every Lara Croft in it fromwhat I have seen but not played.

[GrimAquatic]

Originally posted by regilas:

well shoot, I haven't played Skyrim yet. but maybe the makers of Tomb Raider should be looking to as a sort template.

Or maybe you just need not to play games you don't like and wish them to become something they are not.

[xbb1024]

What makes a good tomb raider game? That sense of accomplishment after solving a puzzle.

[jenski]

don't get me wrong, I like the new game alot. I've played it a billion times and I play multiplayer all the time. and I will continue to play the game. but it's not really a Tomb Raider game in its essence. it's a LaraCroft-Survivor-ExplorePartsOfTheIsland game, but what makes a Tomb Raider game, at its essence, and what sounded so exciting initially about an Open World Island Tomb Raider game (later they called it "not explicitly open world" because they developed the game differently than the initial intention) is that feeling you get from Alexandria, St. Francis' Folly, Ghana, Paris to some extent--that you are always returning to a larger puzzle to be solved.

[GrimAquatic]

There were nine games in the franchise before the most recent one. None of the was an open world game. They all were linear, they all were scripted. They didn't have any of the features you described in your original post. So how exactly do they constitute the essence of Tomb Raider?

[jenski]

hopefully the latter. I love coming back to a puzzle I've been working on bit by bit for days. the latest game was cool, but I feel like a sequel in that vein would just be more of the same.

[GrimAquatic]

Originally posted by fatwednesdayite:

The essence of Tomb Raider is TOMB RAIDING, something almost completely dropped from the latest game. That is the point made in the original post.

Define tomb raiding. Is Venice a tomb? Or maybe Great Wall of China is? Or how about New York?

[SociallyInept]

I have read so many threads and posted so many nearly identical posts on Google. So if you've seen me griping about this game don't be surprised lol.

I have been gaming since well Atari and Pong.... the original gaming systems and when I got my first NES it was like owning a super computer. TR and POP were always my favorite titles growing up because there were a genre all by themselves Puzzles and Riddles. A lot different then stomping on some Koopa Troopa's head. Sometimes you could sit for like half a hour or more trying to figure out how the heck do I get by this. And before you finally break down and look at a guide or in my case back in the day sit on hold for 30+ min while you call Nintendo or whoever for a hint. You discover the big secret and feel great like you just accomplished something.

That's in my opinion what makes a great TR game. A game that makes you think and rewards you in a way because now you can go explore this new area or simply feel a sense of accomplishment that hey you just figured this out as opposed to all scripted and after about the third one senseless and boring action sequences even though there has always been some action in TR for the most part though it was a diversion unless it was a boss. Its never been as present or forced upon you as it is in this one.

This game though almost makes me want to cry. It was my favorite title growing up I use to sit in anticipation for the next new release but now Its a burning ship and I'm watching it go down. Have been actually for the last couple of sequels but I've always been hopeful that it would get better, but it hasn't, its been slowly evolving and building up to this. And now all I see on Google when I type in TR is how TR is exactly like Uncharted at least in 90% of the forums I've come across. And that makes me sick to my stomach. Mostly because unfortunately even I would have to agree it is basically Uncharted just a whole lot more refined.

Why is this then why did they use a lot of UC's ideas, because UC sold. I never personally liked UC I thought it was junk. A lot of people did though and that's fine to each there own. It's the modern age and generation of gamers and gaming. It isn't about thinking or solving a riddle if its harder then 2+2 anymore Its about fast paced action no-thought process games with beautiful set pieces that make you go Awww. And then are over in ruffly 10-15hrs so you can move onto the next big AAA action or adventure title. And that's what sells.

Games like the traditional TR or POP with Tombs and puzzles and Riddles as well as some other genre's are a dying breed they have to adapt to this modern age or fade away completely and the modern age isn't about those style of games anymore. That's why most games it seems even across genres seem to be becoming basically generic their the same game with a different title and picture on the box and a slightly different story as to why your playing it. It's what people have grown up with and expect.

Some of you enjoyed this game and I've noticed most that have usually haven't played to many of the others or just the last couple in the the series which is fine. I also did personally love this game for what it is a fast paced action adventure shooter. However this game isn't TR anymore its the standard run of the mill AAA action adventure game. TR finally hopped on board with all the rest of the sellouts. TR as some may remember it, is dead and not coming back Lara just hasn't had her funeral yet. It would have been more decent for them just to kill Lara off and create a new protagonist and give it a different title because I've seen it to many times with other games in the past their going to try and keep this style of run and gun non stop action game-play as long as they can their not going to revert back because that's what sells today that's the age of gaming.

If I had my own checklist of things I wish they would do in the next one even though I wouldn't hold my breath is:

1.) More Tombs (This is a no brainier and what most people want back the most)

2.) Harder Puzzles and Riddles (Goes nicely with 1. I had a harder time with some of the put the square peg in the square hole puzzles in kindergarten then in this game)

3.) No Onscreen help and get rid of Survival Instinct this isn't AC (This goes with 1. and 2. I don't need to be coddled and told the answer when I'm trying to do something or just simply trying to explore it gets highly annoying almost to where I want to throw my monitor into the wall. And if you do really need help to answer some of the puzzles in this game then I'm so sorry I am at a loss for words however, you might want to think if your ability to breed is in the worlds best interest)

4.) True Open World (Back in the days of the original TR the technology wasn't there for such things it would have been impossible but they tried and for that day and age a game like TR was the standard for Open World basically. But today its more then possible so take advantage of it. It doesn't need to be Skyrim big by any measure but maybe FC2 or FC3 big would be nice and we could find the tombs and explore them at our own pace.)

5.) No QTE's (95% of people despise QTE's how or why their making a comeback is beyond me not only are they making a comeback but now we even have Boss fight QTE's First time I saw that was FC3 and I was horrified enough then. I know Mathias wasn't considered the main Boss the Oni was but still any Boss especially someone you been battling through waves of mobs to get to and bash their head in is suppose to be more difficult then a push to win.)

6.) Less Gear (Having the Axe, Rope, Walkie Talkie and Pistol hanging from her belt were nice additions and look neat so I don't mind them so much TR has somewhat always been about the gear and it was believable. So many guns in this game though, honestly I have been trying to figure out where she hides them all when their not in use and my mind has been starting to delve to some dark dirty places. Maybe keep Base Camps if it was a True Open World then you would have to have them anyhow and add function to them such as storing your gear and being able to take a load-out of what you think you might need or something)

7.) More Supporting Cast Involvement (You never really got to know anyone but Roth kinda anyhow, and then he died. The only other memorable one for me was Reyes and I wanted to put a bullet in her head and blame it on the PTSD after all that I I've been through if someone freaked out and questioned me about it. If your going to have a solo Lara fine, but don't just add random useless characters to make the game look more believable. Seen enough of that in every FPS out there, their just there they don't actually do anything or hit anything there just well there for some illusion of immersion)

8.) Less Combat or More Difficult Combat (If I wanted to play I shooter I'd install or actually do already have a few installed I would start up one of them and play that. Some combat is fine TR has always had some. I think the fights should be more deadly though. Sometimes even on Hard in this game I'd sit there and let myself get hit and wonder if she was ever going to fall down and not get back up. And make the combat avoidable or able to come at from different angles. I can remember off the top of my head in a previous TR thinking oh crud there's a couple tigers over there I really don't want to go up against them right now. And trying to sneak around them to get to where I wanted to go.)

Sorry for the overlong post bored but its 4am here now and can barely see my eyes are starting to burn so I'm sure there's formatting and typos galore in this so I'll end it here. This was just a few ideas off the top of my head I'm sure they have probably been mentioned before they seem rather general to me if I wasn't so tired could probably come up with a lot more.

[jenski]

I, as well!

[Tusken GA]

I don't necessarily believe that a game such as the one's you've described is a bad idea so don't mistake my intent with the following comments.

Tomb Raider as you remember it ceased to be profitable. It had gone past the horizon of worthwhile loss and into the realm of wasted money.

Unlike say, the Bugatti Veyron, the developers of Tomb Raider couldn't really put out a great game that wouldn't be profitable just for the sake of making a great game. They had to be concerned with whether their product would end up in the Red or in the Black.

They also did their research. Old Lara had become a flaw not a strength. Gamers simply didn't like her anymore. Based on the sales numbers of the last couple of games, the developers couldn't rely on old fans to support them; they had to find new ones. They HAD to, or the entire venture would end up in the Red again. I stress AGAIN, because it had already happened.

The old mechanics had become archaic before the developers even realized. Gamers and the press NOTICED the difference in fluidity between the platforming of Uncharted and that of TR: Underworld. They NOTICED the difference in complexity between Uncharted's combat and TR: Underworld's.

Now ask yourself: At what point does necessarily updating core mechanics, rewritting the central character, and improving combat to be competitive stop the game from being a Tomb Raider game?

I haven't seen detractors ask themselves this. They've compared the game against what was plenty but no one I've seen has taken the situation as a whole into account. There are very good reasons why you can't compare against what was. One of them is that "what was" no longer worked. Financially it was a dead end.

[Shibirian]

Exactly this lastest installment here; only with more extensive tombs and riddles.

Another TR playing in Egypt (btw. did you know they enforce circumcisions of girls there?) for example, where Lara would have to enter an extensive complex, solving different puzzles in different tombs with cross-lever-pulling actions to open up the big cheops pyramid, that would be good -- with the rest of the game just like this one here; perfect.

Not sure if other would agree with me here, but I would like to play something exactly like that! =D

[Tusken GA]

Originally posted by SociallyInept:

True as I stated they started marketing to the majority because it is big business and in business you don't target the minority its not as profitable. And the majority of gamers nowadays unfortunately have grown up on games such as COD and Battlefield and most don't want anything more difficult then 2+2 in there games or they get confused. All they like are pretty set pieces kinda goes hand in hand with reading a picture book. But don't worry I don't blame them I blame the lack of the education system nowadays. And lets not forget the parents.

Wow. I had no idea you could draw socio-political conclusions about a populace based on their taste in video games. I mean, sure you can say a population likes violence if it makes violent games, but I had no idea you could conclude that a gamer's taste in games meant they were uneducated.

My brother is about to finish a double major in Mechanical Engineering and Anthropology from the University of California Irvine. He transfered out of UCLA (which he got accepted to straight out of high school) because he didn't like their program.

But he likes CoD, Halo, and would probably like Battlefield too so apparently he's uneducated. He also plays Starcraft and has a pretty developed love of puzzles but apparently that's irrelevant.

Learn something new every day.

These two statements kinda go together. True they were losing sales. This is Because they had started to break away from the traditional TR at that time and started alienating there fans who had come to expect a certain type of product from the TR franchise. As I also stated above I've been watching a burning ship go down and have been for the last couple sequels.

The first few Tomb Raiders pioneered the annualized release schedule. It's problems go back quite a bit farther than the last few sequels. Everything I've heard from fans said that the last few sequels were a return to form for the franchise after a lull of crappy sequels.

This point rings a bit hollow.

Old Lara was never a flaw and no one had ever quit liking her. So not entirely sure what forum you picked up that one-liner from. If she was a flaw and if people didn't like her they would have never attempted to make a reboot or the last few sequels SE would have squashed the project before they ever even handed it over to Crystal. It would have been to big a risk for them and there investors to make something they didn't think people would buy to begin with. Did she need a makeover well certainly as do all games from time to time. Heck I love the new Lara ten times better. I couldn't even attempt to pop in lets say Neverwinter Nights today because its so old and has never been updated. Sure I loved the game played it like 20 times but after playing Skyrim for around my 6th time through, and looking back at that game it just wouldn't be the same the only similarities is they still belong to the same genre of game. Ahh but I do still do have fond memories of getting smashed in that game and stumbling around and falling off a roof or two.

The developers did several focus tests of the Old Lara with modern gamers. It was revealed that just the image of the character carried a negative connotation. People didn't like her. In fact, she's the reason I avoided the older games and new Lara's the reason I was interested in TR(2013) in the first place.

Not the combat, not the survival elements, not the platforming, none of that. The realistic depiction of Lara Croft was the reason I cared about the reboot at all.

The trouble with focus tests of course is that it doesn't capture the niche audience, but the niche audience wasn't carrying the brand anymore, as has been previously illustrated.

No one said updating core mechanics and modernizing the game and character was bad in fact no one I could think of didn't want that it was highly desired. What stopped it from being a TR game is when they took the TR out of it and made it something completely different. It would be like coming out with a lets say, a new COD game and instead of guns you are playing ping-pong with the enemy and even have a crowd of fans on the sidelines but your still in camo though and it still says COD on the box. But in a sense they turned it into a sports genre game and just labeled it COD. Do you think the fans of COD would take kindly to that turn of events. And keep playing it just because the graphics where a little crisper and more modern and the mechanics were a little more fluid. COD would drop off the face of the planet overnight if that happened. TR as stated above needed updating they could have easily updated all of that and some. Such as in my last post made it a true open world. I could come up with alot of ideas to bring it to the new age but still have left the heart of the game and genre in it. TR is about exploration and solving puzzles it's not suppose to entirely revolve around scripted combat and pretty explosions and set pieces.

This is an absolutely terrible analogy. Every superficial feature of the previous games, sans maybe killing endangered species, is still in the game. Platforming, gunplay, puzzle solving, Lara Croft. It's all still there.

The emphasis has shifted sure but they didn't rip out everything and use something completely different. Lara still shoots, climbs, and solves puzzles.

They rebalanced the mechanics, they didn't change them altogether. You are blowing what they've done so far out of proportion you've breached the stratosphere.

Also what was did work that's the main problem. That's what blew TR up into the franchise it is today. When it stopped working was when They decided to start trying to take the franchise in a different direction and now with this release they have even crossed the border into a completely different genre of game. Now they have basically put the final nail in the coffin. As I posted it would have been more decent and respectful for them just to have killed Lara and the TR game off completely. Then come out with a new protagonist and different title so at least the fame of TR and Lara would live on and not just be used to net some quick sales while they watch the name burn and smear her face in the mud. And no one including her fans would have cared they would have been sad to see TR go but they would have played the new title and not thought twice about it because well it was never meant to be a TR, TR is no more this is something different a completely new game. And it also wouldn't have upset all the TR fans and customers nearly as much one thing you dont do in good business is upset your customers it has a tendency not to work to great. Or even not killed TR off but just kept saying the standard we may have one in the works but cant comment on anything right now lines. At least then they would still have options. Now CD and SE are going to have to try and live off TR's name and this new style they have created for maybe one or two more releases that's about all it will get them I estimate I've seen to many other titles go down in flames in similar fashions and become yesterdays news when companies get the bright ideas to take a different direction and start driving the wrong way down a one way street. Then after that release or two the TR name will finally fizzle itself out and sink beneath the waves and nobody will remember TR or Lara because all it is now is another run of the mill action game, fire and forget 5yrs from now it will be like Lara? Lara who? TR? Just like all the other unmemorable action and adventure games that have been a smashing success story one day and possibly appeared on a milk cartoon in some out of the way 3rd world country the next.

Anyhow once again its 4am and my eyes are burning. I got to quit doing this lol sorry for any typos and all the formatting

Do not kid yourself about the failure of the last "real" Tomb Raider. It came out the same exact year as Uncharted 1, a game that did most of what TR: Underworld did better.

It failed because the competition had surpassed it, not because it grew away from its roots. Uncharted was the spiritual successor to TR just as TR was a spiritual successor to Indiana Jones; it satisfied the same market (more or less) and it did it better.

Yeah, the puzzles were simpler. Yeah there was an increased emphasis on gunplay. Yeah it was more "cinematic" and thus more linear, but it satisfied the market that wanted to feel like Indiana Jones, plundering tombs and being a witty badass.

And ultimately, your judgement regarding TR(2013)'s financial viability is fundamentally flawed. This most recent entry revitalized the franchise, whether you want to believe it or not.

It sold, in less than a month, more copies than the previous entry sold in its entire lifetime. It's been a financial success and WILL serve as a starting point for future sequels.

They may OR MAY NOT run it into the ground. That is the risk of sequels. However with Square Enix recent treatment of beloved franchises, I doubt they make that mistake, at least immediately.

But they did recently change CEOs so you never know.

[jenski]

I feel like Lara herself was not the flaw in the latest game. Lara became much more of an interesting, likeable, vulnerable character. That wasn't the weakness. Instead of being the hot adventurer who could do anything, she was trying to understand her surroundings, and we felt every step of that.

The graphics were also an amazing strength. There were places where you could see cliffs or waterfalls that were so detailed an amazing--though most of these places you can't return to in the entire game unless you replay it.

The music was also a good transformation--it became more tribal and drum-based. Though the latest sequels also had good music, this was a good turn.

There are not any real puzzles, though. Fenke, you say that there are still puzzles and such, and that the puzzles are more based on observation than on solving--the old puzzles were totally about observation. The new Tomb Raider has the Survival Instinct to basically solve the puzzle for you. That said, even Underworld had pretty weak puzzles. It could totally still have the style, character development, and music while downplaying the plot a little bit and giving you more room to discover and explore. Lara Croft herself is an explorer, and the whole idea of the game is to let us be explorers via Lara Croft. This game does a better job at showing us the explorer than at letting us be the explorer, due to the above-mentioned reasons. And an Open-World Island with nothing but natural barriers and a good armory of tombs and puzzles would be much more prefferable to a game whose focus is on story and action. I even like the action sequences on the latest Tomb Raider game, and I like the story. But if it focuses too much on that, then it just becomes another story-based game. The story should support the gameplay rather than the gameplay supporting or coinciding with the story.