Bastion > General Discussions > Topic Details
Quiet May 29 @ 4:52pm
Proving grounds are a bit...
Merciless don't you think? I mean to achieve first place.

I'm in my mid twenties. I excel and usually play shooter. So my reflexes and speed on control are fairly fast and accurate. But I have to say, I did have some hard time trying to achieve first place in some proving grounds.

That leads me to the question.
What about gamers that are older? Where their reflexes are slower?

The question was sparked from some players on the Remember Me steam forum.
Some older players were complaining about the quick time sequence and camera angle.
Older, which leads to less patient and slower reflexes.
Showing 1-15 of 34 comments
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ThePlagued May 29 @ 4:55pm 
Well, seeing as how Remember Me is a terrible game, it seems irrelivent. and a FPS differs entirely from an isometric beatem up.
elevul May 29 @ 5:11pm 
Just don't bother with 1st place on first playthrough, it only gives you a special attack. Get the upgrade pieces on first and second playthrough, after which getting 1st place with fully upgrade weapons is gonna be a joke (except for the last proving ground).
Quiet May 29 @ 7:02pm 
Originally posted by ThePlagued:
Well, seeing as how Remember Me is a terrible game, it seems irrelivent. and a FPS differs entirely from an isometric beatem up.

I can already completely disregard your comment, due to two things.
1) Remember Me is not an FPS. By stating that, your opinion on RM is completely invalid.
2) Bringing RM up is a point of how some older players reacted from reaction time required sequences. Which is completely relevant.


Originally posted by elevul:
Just don't bother with 1st place on first playthrough, it only gives you a special attack. Get the upgrade pieces on first and second playthrough, after which getting 1st place with fully upgrade weapons is gonna be a joke (except for the last proving ground).

It's just a completionist type thing for me.
Don't really like things left locked, stone left unturn etc.
Unless it's really non-profitable, then only will I let it be.
Or else I'd be stuck trying to achieve 100% before moving on.
Last edited by Quiet; May 29 @ 7:03pm
ThePlagued May 29 @ 7:20pm 
Originally posted by Avo³:
1) Remember Me is not an FPS. By stating that, your opinion on RM is completely invalid.

So. My opinion on games can only be towards First Person Shooters, that's an interesting opressive state of view.
Black Rose Angel May 29 @ 8:36pm 
I got enough first places to unlock the memorial achievement. Admittedly, a lot of these are quite difficult. Some are easy though, and some just take a little figuring out. Some of them require you to get lucky, like the Cael Hammer and the Flame Bellows. (I got lucky with latter, not the former.) Then there's the Calamity Canon, Good luck with that one, it's impossible, I mean impassable. Nothing's impossible.
Last edited by Black Rose Angel; May 29 @ 8:37pm
Quiet May 29 @ 8:59pm 
Originally posted by ThePlagued:
Originally posted by Avo³:
1) Remember Me is not an FPS. By stating that, your opinion on RM is completely invalid.

So. My opinion on games can only be towards First Person Shooters, that's an interesting opressive state of view.

I'm not sure if you're trolling, or you just completely don't know what you're talking about.

Remember Me, is not a first person shooter. By stating that, clearly state you haven't even tried or even know what Remember Me is about. Which leads to your opinion on Remember Me being a terrible game, invalid.

It's not opressive, it's common sense and logic. No right to judge what you have not tried.


Originally posted by Black Rose Angel:
I got enough first places to unlock the memorial achievement. Admittedly, a lot of these are quite difficult. Some are easy though, and some just take a little figuring out. Some of them require you to get lucky, like the Cael Hammer and the Flame Bellows. (I got lucky with latter, not the former.) Then there's the Calamity Canon, Good luck with that one, it's impossible, I mean impassable. Nothing's impossible. :tbpwink:

Calamity Canon was actually easy for me. Slapped couple AoE+ on it, and it was...Just easy.

And yes, there are easy ones, and there are hard ones.
But my point being, as a product avaliable to everyone. Shouldn't it made easily accessible to everyone? I don't mean completely removing the challenge, but by how little leeway devs allow for first place? I just find it harsh on people who have slower reflexes.

I mean, as for the dual pistol trial. I had to actually rebind the shooter key to have an easier time to smash it.
Last edited by Quiet; May 29 @ 9:01pm
Traithe May 29 @ 9:19pm 
I don't think there's anything wrong with how they have done the proving grounds. They can be difficult without upgrades, but if a player is having trouble with them, you can upgrade the weapon to make it easier and come back to them.

The Calamity cannon trial is a good example - with zero upgrades it's very tough, fully upgraded with extra blast and homing shots it's very easy. Shift targeting makes most of the ranged weapon trials much simpler also.

I think they've done well with the balance overall.
Voodoogumbo May 30 @ 3:48am 
Spot on assessment Traithe. +1
GROCKR May 30 @ 7:20am 
Originally posted by Avo³:
Originally posted by ThePlagued:

So. My opinion on games can only be towards First Person Shooters, that's an interesting opressive state of view.

I'm not sure if you're trolling, or you just completely don't know what you're talking about.

Remember Me, is not a first person shooter. By stating that, clearly state you haven't even tried or even know what Remember Me is about. Which leads to your opinion on Remember Me being a terrible game, invalid.

It's not opressive, it's common sense and logic. No right to judge what you have not tried
jeez man read his comment before arguing
you said ppl in RM complained, he said RM is a ♥♥♥♥
you said you have FPS experience he said bastion is not fps
:\
bunkerbudy May 30 @ 7:31am 
nice
Quiet May 30 @ 3:28pm 
Originally posted by Icewind Dale:
Originally posted by Avo³:

I'm not sure if you're trolling, or you just completely don't know what you're talking about.

Remember Me, is not a first person shooter. By stating that, clearly state you haven't even tried or even know what Remember Me is about. Which leads to your opinion on Remember Me being a terrible game, invalid.

It's not opressive, it's common sense and logic. No right to judge what you have not tried
jeez man read his comment before arguing
you said ppl in RM complained, he said RM is a ♥♥♥♥
you said you have FPS experience he said bastion is not fps
:\

You should read from the very top.

I said I have FPS experience, that is an example / proof of I have fast reflexes.
Which Bastion proving grounds (some of them) requires fast reflexes.

Point being - If a player already possess fast reflex from regular fast pace games - ie. FPS genre. In this case, me having trouble to obtain first place. That leads me question to - What about players that have normal / slower reflexes? Does that mean first place is out of the question for them, forever?

I brought RM up, is because there are older players complaining about that game requiring fast reflexes, which they are unable to keep up with the speed required.

Last but not least - Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but when speaking your opinions without any facts / reasons to back it up. Be expected that others will disregard what you said as trash.

HiImTye May 30 @ 4:29pm 
my mother always complains about the reflexes required for most games. I sincerely hope they don't start catering action games to her.
Laughingbook May 30 @ 7:04pm 
If a game requires lightning fast reflexes, or pinpoint accuracy, or has really tight timing... then it's just not for people that can't handle it. I don't think you should compromise your design just because people will find the game too hard. If your vision is that the game is complex and punishing, and requires a high degree of skill and fast reflexes, then you are catering to a very particular audience and should fully commit to that. Otherwise, your game will be made worse for it.
There are many thousands of games in the world. Probably tens or hundreds of thousands by this point. It's no big deal if you can't handle one of them. It's just not the game for you.

Now regarding the proving grounds, they're designed I think to be possible without upgrades, and generally trivial with all of the available upgrades. You should be able to finish them, theoretically, but you may want to get upgrades and come back later if you don't want to spend ages attempting. For instance, the bow one? If you get I think... what is it, 3 perfect shots at the exact correct angle, you can get first place on it without upgrades. You need upgrades to widen that margin for error. They don't make you be perfect at the game. ;)
noname Jun 8 @ 12:13pm 
Originally posted by Avo³:
I said I have FPS experience, that is an example / proof of I have fast reflexes.
Which Bastion proving grounds (some of them) requires fast reflexes.

Point being - If a player already possess fast reflex from regular fast pace games - ie. FPS genre. In this case, me having trouble to obtain first place. That leads me question to - What about players that have normal / slower reflexes? Does that mean first place is out of the question for them, forever?
You have fast reflexes and you suck at getting first place in proving grounds? Then I'm a ♥♥♥♥ing Max Payne on drugs. Because most of the trials are pretty easy.
And Remember Me? It isn't hard even by modern standards.

But you know what? I can't play normal physical games where this fast reflexes is indeed needed. Like ♥♥♥♥ing ping-pong. And I'm not fat or handicapped.

Originally posted by Avo³:
But my point being, as a product avaliable to everyone. Shouldn't it made easily accessible to everyone? I don't mean completely removing the challenge, but by how little leeway devs allow for first place? I just find it harsh on people who have slower reflexes.
Accessible to whom everyone? It's accessible to me, it's accessible to my friends.
If you are completionist then you are prepared to face every challenge in the game. Because all this challenges, alternative and "true" endings, Samus undressing after mission score are all optional/bonus content, this is award for your efforts, experience and "fast reflexes", it should be hard to get it, because only then you would feel like you accomplished something, only then achievement would not be just a word for pretty icon in your stat page. Because, you know, most of the human beings play games because they want to feel, that they reached their life purpose, without taking their butts from a chair.

If some people can't play some games because of their "slower reflexes" then they shouldn't. Like I don't play ping-pong, because I can't.

It's because of the mid twenties working people, who just want to relax after hard working day in their couch and play some games with beer in one hand and chips in other, we have slew of interactive movies instead of games. Because authors of this "games" wanted them to be accessible for this kind of "gamers".
Last edited by noname; Jun 8 @ 12:16pm
Quiet Jun 8 @ 12:34pm 
Originally posted by noname:
You have fast reflexes and you suck at getting first place in proving grounds? Then I'm a ♥♥♥♥ing Max Payne on drugs. Because most of the trials are pretty easy.
And Remember Me? It isn't hard even by modern standards.

But you know what? I can't play normal physical games where this fast reflexes is indeed needed. Like ♥♥♥♥ing ping-pong. And I'm not fat or handicapped.

Accessible to whom everyone? It's accessible to me, it's accessible to my friends.
If you are completionist then you are prepared to face every challenge in the game. Because all this challenges, alternative and "true" endings, Samus undressing after mission score are all optional/bonus content, this is award for your efforts, experience and "fast reflexes", it should be hard to get it, because only then you would feel like you accomplished something, only then achievement would not be just a word for pretty icon in your stat page. Because, you know, most of the human beings play games because they want to feel, that they reached their life purpose, without taking their butts from a chair.

If some people can't play some games because of their "slower reflexes" then they shouldn't. Like I don't play ping-pong, because I can't.

It's because of the mid twenties working people, who just want to relax after hard working day in their couch and play some games with beer in one hand and chips in other, we have slew of interactive movies instead of games. Because authors of this "games" wanted them to be accessible for this kind of "gamers".

You sound so mad for an old thread that's already passed its prime.

Most of the trials are easy if you know the trick to it.
IE. The War machette trial.
I was so focused on chopping them down, and killing spawners. I didn't notice the fact that all of them spew out in the middle to begin with. That's got nothing to do with how quick my reflexes are.
The Bone Repeater trial.
I started first run got second place, unable to finish up the last bridge. Tried and tried, couldn't do it. Why? Because I'm not one used to the feature of "auto-lock on". My reflexes got me decent far, but once I started using auto-lock on, I had TONS of time to spare.

Remember Me wasn't hard. I brought it up because while I'm enjoying through out the entire game, I've noticed people on steam forum complained about it being hard, since it requires quick reflexes to dodge attacks and what not.
*Not sure if you're just trolling here, or just plain didn't read anything before replying.

Accessible as in achieving first place. Not - Able to play the game. Don't be a twit and nit picking on word's definition.

As a completionist, I completed, and achieved everything Bastion has to offer.
That wasn't the point why I made this thread, I simply brought up concerns by using myself as example. Point being - I'm good, but I still have trouble here and there. What about those casual gamers, so they're excluded from the prize just because they are casual?

Using Metroid as an example is the worst you can do.
Samus undressing is an aesthetic reward. It doesn't impact your game experience, and it's a reward at the end, a desert for yourself to savor. + You can still have access to the picture/ screenie, or whichever format through internet. While Bastion trials first prize being hidden skills, which can impact a player's game experience.

Most of the human beings. As if you did statistic research. Just because all 3 of your friends are losers, and play games to feel their existence mean something, that they play games to achieve a purpose in life, doesn't mean "MOST" human beings play games for such purpose.

Again, don't be a twit. Just because some one's not good at something, that doesn't take their rights away from doing it. You suck at ping-pong, you refuse to play it. That's your problem. That doesn't mean everyone who's bad at ping-pong shouldn't try, practice, or even play.

Your last point make no sense what so ever. So I'm not even going to bother commenting on that one.
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